Timing Belt precautions!!
#21
02-14-2017, 04:30 PM
...the Volvo dealership "expert" (a very respectable dealership they say) said if the crank is turning without the cams, the valves are surely bent. That is totally false, and identifies a misunderstanding of the mechanics of their engines. I don't think they were trying to sell me anything...I just think they had this "doomsday" mentality about the timing belt slipping off, which may not be accurate?
#22
02-14-2017, 04:46 PM
Just saw you're talking about the old 4 cylinder. I can't say I've seen those with bent valves. Next time I do a timing belt on one, I'll try to spin the cams all the way around by hand with the belt off.
The 5 and 6 cylinders do indeed bend valves.
Just curious, was the belt ever changed on this car? Despite your claim that the tensioner is weak, I can't say I've ever seen one fail prematurely (with the exception of cheap aftermarket ones)
The 5 and 6 cylinders do indeed bend valves.
Just curious, was the belt ever changed on this car? Despite your claim that the tensioner is weak, I can't say I've ever seen one fail prematurely (with the exception of cheap aftermarket ones)
#23
02-14-2017, 06:30 PM
I doubt the belt was ever replaced. The belt was seemingly in decent shape but 17yrs old by now. Car has just 105K miles. Definitely past time to replace. We bought the car about a year ago, and yeh I suggested to my GF to replace the belt.
Tensioner bearing fell apart, somehow...***** dropped out everywhere and inner race came off the outer race. Looked like the belt had been running with the tensioner misaligned, but the mounting bolt was still in place. It never "complained" with screeching or the like, which is weird for a bearing of that size to just fall apart.
Tensioner bearing fell apart, somehow...***** dropped out everywhere and inner race came off the outer race. Looked like the belt had been running with the tensioner misaligned, but the mounting bolt was still in place. It never "complained" with screeching or the like, which is weird for a bearing of that size to just fall apart.
#25
02-14-2017, 11:16 PM
I'm not blaming a 17 yr old car for slipping an original timing belt tho. I mean, I suggested she buy a 17yr old volvo for their safety and mechanical reliability. Probably not on par with Toyota or Honda, but the used S40's are dirt cheap for a good car.
The point of my post is to highlight that a slipped belt doesn't mean bent valves, as pretty much everyone is led to believe. Maybe someone will read this one day and save their engine instead of send their car to the scrapyard. It's probably more likely that when ppl try to replace their timing belt after breakage or slippage, they're not getting the marks right, which also makes the engine run rough, like bent valves. I found it a bit challenging to interpret the marks and not leave an extra tooth of slack on the tight side of the timing belt.
#26
02-15-2017, 06:45 AM
Hondas and Toyotas need timing belts changed too. Thicker steel and another bolt won't help a bearing from coming apart. I've never once had a case where the steel or the bolt was a problem.
If someone reads this and wants to try to save their engine and they are doing it themselves, go for it. But when a 5 cylinder comes in with the belt off, I can sell them a new belt kit plus about 4.5 hours labor to retime the engine. Then when it doesn't run and I tell them it needs a head for another couple grand, they will come on the boards and say I ripped them off because I work at the "stealership".
If someone reads this and wants to try to save their engine and they are doing it themselves, go for it. But when a 5 cylinder comes in with the belt off, I can sell them a new belt kit plus about 4.5 hours labor to retime the engine. Then when it doesn't run and I tell them it needs a head for another couple grand, they will come on the boards and say I ripped them off because I work at the "stealership".
#27
02-15-2017, 11:39 AM
@ES6T: If you're being honest with your customers, there's not a problem. It's a big problem when the only option for timing belt change after breakage is a $5k new engine due to misdiagnosis of the mechanical issue. Are they worried about liability, or a customer not being satisfied with the outcome...maybe?
Does it bother you that people can replace this belt on their own without a new engine?
Does it bother you that people can replace this belt on their own without a new engine?
#28
02-15-2017, 11:51 AM
First, I don't recommend an engine for bent valves.
Second, if I tell you "Sure, there is a chance it can be re-timed. It will be $700 to do it and replace the belt", that isn't being honest. Because then I'm calling back saying "Well, that didn't work. You need a head for $3000 in addition to the $700 you already owe me." you aren't going to be very happy.
The way I handle it is with an inspection camera. The customer is paying an hour diagnosis. So I pull the plugs and put a camera in the cylinder. When I see every intake valve is open, it needs a head. Care to guess how many times I haven't seen all the valves open?
It doesn't bother me that you put a belt on. Good for you. What bothers me is when I have customers argue with me because they saw something on the internet. So this post can surely cause someone with a different car and different engine to falsely believe that I can just put a belt on and I am ripping them off.
Second, if I tell you "Sure, there is a chance it can be re-timed. It will be $700 to do it and replace the belt", that isn't being honest. Because then I'm calling back saying "Well, that didn't work. You need a head for $3000 in addition to the $700 you already owe me." you aren't going to be very happy.
The way I handle it is with an inspection camera. The customer is paying an hour diagnosis. So I pull the plugs and put a camera in the cylinder. When I see every intake valve is open, it needs a head. Care to guess how many times I haven't seen all the valves open?
It doesn't bother me that you put a belt on. Good for you. What bothers me is when I have customers argue with me because they saw something on the internet. So this post can surely cause someone with a different car and different engine to falsely believe that I can just put a belt on and I am ripping them off.
#29
02-15-2017, 12:01 PM
#30
02-15-2017, 12:09 PM
I don't think anyone is withholding information.
According to Volvo, all white blocks are interference engines. So with that, yes, everyone is going to say there is valve damage because that is what an interference engine is. If you call a Volvo service advisor, that is the answer you are going to get.
I'm not trying to argue. I just know everyone likes to search the internet until they find an answer they like. And then they take that as gospel without knowing what they are talking about. So I'm trying to give some perspective here.
According to Volvo, all white blocks are interference engines. So with that, yes, everyone is going to say there is valve damage because that is what an interference engine is. If you call a Volvo service advisor, that is the answer you are going to get.
I'm not trying to argue. I just know everyone likes to search the internet until they find an answer they like. And then they take that as gospel without knowing what they are talking about. So I'm trying to give some perspective here.
#31
02-15-2017, 12:39 PM
@ES6T:
Thinking back on it, when I presented the problem to the volvo service station if they had said: "We will scope the engine, see if there's damage, and go from there" ...the car would have been in their lot that eve.
Instead I got: "...definitely bent valves, replace engine for $5k". "No way to diagnose until belt is back on and we do a compression test". Turns out the dealer (who said he had 25yrs experience and was a technician himself) was wrong. If he had been more knowledgeable or willing to diagnose wrecked valves, he would have made the $$$. So I'm thinking it might actually help the techs and the customers to understand that broken belts don't mean belt valves every time.
Thinking back on it, when I presented the problem to the volvo service station if they had said: "We will scope the engine, see if there's damage, and go from there" ...the car would have been in their lot that eve.
Instead I got: "...definitely bent valves, replace engine for $5k". "No way to diagnose until belt is back on and we do a compression test". Turns out the dealer (who said he had 25yrs experience and was a technician himself) was wrong. If he had been more knowledgeable or willing to diagnose wrecked valves, he would have made the $$$. So I'm thinking it might actually help the techs and the customers to understand that broken belts don't mean belt valves every time.
#32
02-15-2017, 12:45 PM
Apparently not on the 4 cylinders. So apparently, if someone Google's this in the future and has an old S/V40, you have a chance.
But on the 5 and 6 cylinders, it does. I've scoped dozens. I've had them be just about 3 teeth off because of debris or an accessory belt getting caught in the timing and bend every single valve. I'm not an engineer, but perhaps the additional cylinder or two doesn't leave room for it to stop without smashing valves.
But on the 5 and 6 cylinders, it does. I've scoped dozens. I've had them be just about 3 teeth off because of debris or an accessory belt getting caught in the timing and bend every single valve. I'm not an engineer, but perhaps the additional cylinder or two doesn't leave room for it to stop without smashing valves.
#33
02-15-2017, 12:57 PM
Sure...each engine could have different valve-piston clearance. Most manufacturers are moving to less clearance with newer engines, as this makes detonation more efficient in most engines...so it makes sense that the newer engines probably have a greater chance of bent valves. And yeh, I don't know what kind of trickery volvo does with the cam & valves to get the 5 cylinders to run smoother, but it could complicate valve clearance and timing.
#34
05-20-2017, 08:34 AM
How to determine if timing belt slipped?
I have a 2006 S40 with 80K miles. I was driving it and as I coasted to a stop at a red light my engine stopped. No noises, it happened at idle, nothing unual happened. It would not restart. I towed the car to a mechanic. He told me that he believes the timing belt slipped.
The car has been sitting in my driveway waiting for me to do something about it. I am questioning that diagnosis. I would hate to salvage the car or pay $800 to have the timing belt fixed if it's something else. The timing belt looks fine and tight. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Is there a simple way to verify if the timing belt slipped? What other problems would cause the engine to stall and not restart? (There is gas in the vehicle)
Any ideas?
The car has been sitting in my driveway waiting for me to do something about it. I am questioning that diagnosis. I would hate to salvage the car or pay $800 to have the timing belt fixed if it's something else. The timing belt looks fine and tight. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Is there a simple way to verify if the timing belt slipped? What other problems would cause the engine to stall and not restart? (There is gas in the vehicle)
Any ideas?
#35
05-11-2018, 05:59 PM
I am just now changing my timing belt with 150k miles on it. The biggest reason was because of an oil leak from the cam seals getting on the timing belt.
Even after finding the leak, I didn't find the time to change the timing belt for a few more months, and the timing belt was in far better shape than I thought it would be once I took it off.
Even after finding the leak, I didn't find the time to change the timing belt for a few more months, and the timing belt was in far better shape than I thought it would be once I took it off.
#36
06-02-2020, 12:12 AM
Doesn't sound like the timing belt has a problem to me. Surely you have an engine code thrown, so start with a EBDII reader.
There are about a zillion things that cause an engine to stall and not start. Perhaps with a better description of "not start" someone could make an educated guess.
There are about a zillion things that cause an engine to stall and not start. Perhaps with a better description of "not start" someone could make an educated guess.
#37
06-05-2020, 10:22 PM
I just changed my timing belt three days ago and it is broken again.
I am writing this post because there has kind of been a little debate lately about timing belts and the service intervals.
[/align]The post is to show why the timing belt should really be changed at about 70,000 miles instead of 105,000 like Volvo says it should be.
[/align]Also Make sure you replace the tensioner and idler pulleys as well.
[/align]I have some pics of belts I have replaced at work on cars.
[/align]I have the belts from a few of the different models the milage will vary between 70K and 80K. You will see how the belts crack at that milage.
[/align]I would not trust the belts like that on my own car. That's why I am making this post so that everyone is informed about the belts and what can happen if they break.
[/align]
[/align]I know not everyone has the money always to get the job done. I know how it is I have 4 kids and very little money. But the point I am trying to make is that it is better to pay between $700.00 to $800.00 or so. Rather than having to Junk the car or pay over $3000.00 to get the head rebuilt or replaced. Or maybe even more to have a new motor installed.
[/align]
[/align]I have my own theory on why they go bad faster on the 1999 and newer cars than on the older cars.
[/align]
[/align]I think it is because of how the timing covers are made.
[/align]The older cars all the heat that gets to the timing belt only comes from the front of the motor.
[/align]
[/align]The 1999 and newer cars the timing cover are different because of having the VVT valve in the cam cover. That allows all the heat from the top of the motor to access the timing belt and add more heat to that area causing the belt to go bad faster.
[/align]
[/align]On the 1993 to 1998 5 cylinders and 1994 to 1998 6 cylinders the timing belts could last a lot long but I wouldn't trust them either.
[/align]But that's my theory.
[/align]
[/align]Now onto the pictures the first batch will be the timing belt pictures with the model,year and milage that they were changed.
[/align]Then the last batch of pictures will be an idler and tensioner pulley from a S80.(Not as bad as I wanted for an example picture but will work.
[/align]Then finally a picture of an engine that had the belt break.
[/align]
[/align]This way everyone has an Idea of the entire situation.
[/align]Then you can make your own decisions from here.
[/align]
[/align]The first belt is from a 2000 S80 with 72,623 miles
[/align]Attachment 24195
[/align]Attachment 24196
[/align]The second belt is from a 2003 S40 with 73,746 miles
[/align]Attachment 24197
[/align]Attachment 24198
[/align]The last one is from a 2001 V70 with 82,700 miles
[/align]
[/align]
[/align]
[/align]Here is a tensioner if you look closely in one spot you will see where grease started coming out of the bearing.
[/align]
[/align]
[/align]Here is the idler same here both sides were spinning grease out.
[/align]Attachment 24199
[/align]Attachment 24200
[/align]If your serpentine belt looks like this replace it I have seen them break as well and get sucked into the engine and break the timing belt as well.
[/align]Attachment 24201
[/align]
[/align]So there is my post the pics might not be the best but should help some.
[/align]
Sorry here is the pics of the head and block.
Attachment 24202
Attachment 24203
[/align]The post is to show why the timing belt should really be changed at about 70,000 miles instead of 105,000 like Volvo says it should be.
[/align]Also Make sure you replace the tensioner and idler pulleys as well.
[/align]I have some pics of belts I have replaced at work on cars.
[/align]I have the belts from a few of the different models the milage will vary between 70K and 80K. You will see how the belts crack at that milage.
[/align]I would not trust the belts like that on my own car. That's why I am making this post so that everyone is informed about the belts and what can happen if they break.
[/align]
[/align]I know not everyone has the money always to get the job done. I know how it is I have 4 kids and very little money. But the point I am trying to make is that it is better to pay between $700.00 to $800.00 or so. Rather than having to Junk the car or pay over $3000.00 to get the head rebuilt or replaced. Or maybe even more to have a new motor installed.
[/align]
[/align]I have my own theory on why they go bad faster on the 1999 and newer cars than on the older cars.
[/align]
[/align]I think it is because of how the timing covers are made.
[/align]The older cars all the heat that gets to the timing belt only comes from the front of the motor.
[/align]
[/align]The 1999 and newer cars the timing cover are different because of having the VVT valve in the cam cover. That allows all the heat from the top of the motor to access the timing belt and add more heat to that area causing the belt to go bad faster.
[/align]
[/align]On the 1993 to 1998 5 cylinders and 1994 to 1998 6 cylinders the timing belts could last a lot long but I wouldn't trust them either.
[/align]But that's my theory.
[/align]
[/align]Now onto the pictures the first batch will be the timing belt pictures with the model,year and milage that they were changed.
[/align]Then the last batch of pictures will be an idler and tensioner pulley from a S80.(Not as bad as I wanted for an example picture but will work.
[/align]Then finally a picture of an engine that had the belt break.
[/align]
[/align]This way everyone has an Idea of the entire situation.
[/align]Then you can make your own decisions from here.
[/align]
[/align]The first belt is from a 2000 S80 with 72,623 miles
[/align]Attachment 24195
[/align]Attachment 24196
[/align]The second belt is from a 2003 S40 with 73,746 miles
[/align]Attachment 24197
[/align]Attachment 24198
[/align]The last one is from a 2001 V70 with 82,700 miles
[/align]
[/align]
[/align]
[/align]Here is a tensioner if you look closely in one spot you will see where grease started coming out of the bearing.
[/align]
[/align]
[/align]Here is the idler same here both sides were spinning grease out.
[/align]Attachment 24199
[/align]Attachment 24200
[/align]If your serpentine belt looks like this replace it I have seen them break as well and get sucked into the engine and break the timing belt as well.
[/align]Attachment 24201
[/align]
[/align]So there is my post the pics might not be the best but should help some.
[/align]
Sorry here is the pics of the head and block.
Attachment 24202
Attachment 24203
I replaced my timing belt three days ago and it is broken again. What do I do, somebody hel a brother here please.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
