Anyone know if the 960 (I have a 1995) and the S90 are the same car? Someone told me it is, for replacement parts, etc - confirmation?

Also, anyone know what might make a 2.9 sound like a diesel truck? Figured it was a valve tap, then thought it was timing, then did an oil flush (with Gunk) and it seems better (it was REALLY sludged up...)

Anyone else have this? Mine happened over the course of 2k miles after an oil change (maybe they used 4 quarts instead of 6? or...tractor oi? I'm clueless...)

Thanks in advance!

 

No oil would be my guess. Yes the S90 is pretty much the same as the '95 960's. You may want to do a compression test. Sounds like stuck valves.

 

So does anyone have a shop manual they use for their 960? I heard there might be a computer one somewhere, can't find much of anything! Chiltens advertises a 1904-1999 Every-Volvo-Ever-Made book, but I hear it's junk...

As for the lack of oil --It was low, I'm guessing only about a gallon came out, maybe less - didn't register on the stick (still doesn't, but I have a replacement stick, factory one broke... checking dealership or salvage yard for price soon...)

It's sounding much better, but I don't think I have any leaks... a porous block would have leaks visible in the bay, right? or a puddle? I have neither...

Maybe the local garage (don't like working in the winter outside!) didn't give me enough oil? No clue, but I put a bottle of gunk and an extra quart of oil and idled it for almost 20 minutes before i drained it, and put in 6 quarts (a touch too much) of valvoline high mileage 75k+ (red bottle) 10w40 in there.

Hopefully with the detergents in this oil I'll see in the next couple months if it was just a fluke, or an intermittent problem.

Thanks!

 

And thanks, rspi, I had a feeling I would hear from you :-)

 

LOL, I just changed the oil and filter in my 960 and it takes 6-1/2 quarts.

 

Well, it's listed at 5.9, and I put in 6 and it's smoking a bit (not much) I hope it's not a gasket issue, it's only out the exhaust... just looks like everyday overfill to me... guess I'll find out soon enough :-(

I'm going to flush it again in about 1500-2000 miles (double flush perhaps) the tap is still there on startup, but after about 2 or 3 seconds it purrs down into a normal sound (very very mild tap if I listen closely, nobody else would know) so I hope I just didn't clean it well enough.

btw, how would I know (without a light) if my timing is off? Just check plugs? Or will there be a sound?

 

It's a stuck lifter. Substitute a quart of ATF with your engine oil to help clean them out, ATF has tons of detergents. If your engine is real sludged, I'd do that for probably 2-3 OCI's, and I'd run 1-2 quarts of ATF. After that, do an Auto-RX treatment, and your oil issues should disappear.

 

So 4 quarts oil and 2 quarts ATF? atf as in automatic transmission fluid? Should I use 4 quarts of the high mileage oil, or regular valvoline white bottle?

do this for the next 6-9 months? squeeze the intervals or keep them at 3-5k?

Auto-RX after the detox sounds fair, but the detox cocktail sounds unique... Never heard of using ATF in the crank case - I know it's all petrolium, but still...

Is that better than GuNK or other engine cleaners, or is it just cheaper? what kind of weight is ATF? I put 10w40 in now, should I use synthetics, etc?

With an idea like that, I feel I should be asking some specifics and looking for confirmation :-)

I'm sure someone will read this soon enough, I'm going to leave what I have in for a while, unless it gets noisy again, I'll probably change it out again in 1-2k depending on color and level.

Thanks, Kendogg!

 

My V90's Owner's Manual states that these Volvos have hydraulic valve lifters and a tapping noise in normal in start-up for e few seconds. If the car has not been used in a long time, the tapping noise might last about 15 minutes. "This is entirely normal". It also states to not exceed 3000 rpm until this noise is gone.

I have used 1 qrt of ATF (automatic transmission fluid) before oil changes too on other vehicles and it helps with valve tapping. I don't think it matters which ATF -- I used regular Mercon V and Chrysler's ATF+4. ATF is not measured by weight -- although it is less viscous than engine oil. Any flush products (like Gunk) would also help -- they are just "kerosene in a bottle". I would do the treatment with 1 quart of ATF or Gunk, 15-20 minutes then drain and fill with synthetic 10-30.

Like Rspi said our Volvo suffer from stuck exhaust valves if not driven out on highways often. Some people report good results with driving the car with 4000-5000 rpm for 10-15 minutes (low gear), which burns out the deposits and frees the valves.

If you have the stomach for more drastic measures do the Seafoam - Chinese Water Torture http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=35053

 

What I've done in the past is use 1-2 quarts of ATF to help slowly clean the engine. 'Shock' cleaners such as Gunk, kerosene, etc. tend to clean too quickly, and usually require frequent filter changes for as many as 1-2 filters after the cleansing. The ATF is less harsh, and doesn't dislodge as much of the larger sediments as the Gunk would.

If I were doing it (which I am currently in my E30), I used 2 quarts of w/e ATF is cheapest, and 4 quarts of w/e cheap oil (I used Rotella 15W-40, but those engines enjoy thick oil), and I wouldn't recommend running it more than 2500-3k miles. Frequent changes are your friend when trying to clean out an engine. Use a good quality filter. 2 big reasons for not stretching the OCI - ATF isn't as viscous as engine oil, and as your engine oil shears, it'll lose viscosity quicker. Secondly, your chances of having 'dirtier' oil, or plugging a filter, are significantly greater when attempting to de-sludge a sludged engine (depending on how dirty yours actually is).


My first E30 was horribly sluidged when I got it. We ran it with regular Castrol GTX 20W-50 & 3 quarts of ATF for about 30 minutes, a few high-rpm holds in that mix, and changed the oil. When I pulled the filter, it looked like silt pouring out of it.


Also, when you're building a motor - you soak hydraulic lifters in ATF before installation to prime them.

 

So I can drive the car with ATF in the oil? (just to be clear) or run it for a bit and drain it like gunk? I'm going to squeeze my oci and I guess go to 15w-30 (x4 and 2x ATF?)? I'll probably do every 1k for the next 3k, that should give it a good rinse.

What oil and filter do you guys use on your 960s (or straight 6s?)

 

I am not discounting what Kendogg is saying, and it very well could be positive experience of others with BMW.

I do have my reservations on having ATF at about 33% of engine oil mass. Especially I have concerns at higher RPMs, where the oil pressure increases 3-4 times versus in idle. ATF is not a good lubricator for engine internals at higher pressures.

Since I am going through Stage 0 for my V90, I have been doing some reading from people more experienced in Volvo engines.

It sounds that you have upper cylinder lubrication issues. Volvo engine gurus on Turbobricks and Brickboard recommend both procedures -- 1) engine/sludge cleaners (such as Techron). Seafoam + Chinese Water Torture seems a little controversial. ATF would do the same job. 2) the consensus seems to be that hard-driving at 4000-5000 rpm for 20 minutes cleans up the exhaust valves.

I am using Mann oil filter and Valvoline synthetic 10W30. Advance Auto Parts now carries Mann filters for about $ 5.

 

I have valvoline 10w40 high mileage (synth blend) and a purolator gold filter (5 quarts and a filter for $20 special kind of deal at advanced auto parts)

The seafoam/water is quite similar to your #2, no? it's like doing your #1 and #2 simultaneously... Italians used to do it with carbs on seldom driven sports cars for decades - just to burn off carbon build-up, seems that's the issue at hand, but old Ferrari vs new(er) Volvo, I'm not sure what carries over and what doesn't.

I think if I squeeze my oci's and use gunk it should clean up soon... right?

 

Seafoam + Water Torture is more drastic, but I would do if other steps failed first.

If I had gunk issues, I would take it step-by-step, and escalate if needed. Tapping noise at startup is normal. If there still is slight tapping I would do 1 q ATF for 20 minutes idling. Or I would do Techron and change the oil. If the car wasn't run on highways for a while I would also do # 2 for the sticky valves.

# 1 and 2 should resolve your sludge issues.

I had good results with Valvoline semi-synth on my 5-cyl white-block (Volvo 850).

Purolator filters are good filters too. But I think the price is about the same as Mann, which people really endorse.

Some more reading

Chinese Water Torture (a SeaFoam recipe) - Turbobricks Forums

240 Oil and Fuel Additives - Turbobricks Forums

Fuel, Lubricant and Coolant Data

 

Thank you so much, I think this has been a quite informative thread, and might be worth a sticky (valve) :-)

At least a compilation of these solutions and the fact that it is a known issue. I'm sure this thread has happened before, and it will happen again I'm sure (eventually).

Thank you all so much for your help and knowledge!!!

 

As Henry and the owners manual say, clicking is not unusual and somewhat normal. I think you had a sticky valve situation. However, I would not quickly jump to the conclusion that you have a sludge problem.

I have heard of running tranny fluid before but I would not exceed a 20% mix. At the most I would do 5 qts oil, 1.5 qts tranny fluid. Maybe run it for 1,000 miles, change, then maybe do it one more time.

When and what color smoke are you getting from the tail pipe? If it's white smoke at start up, that is 100% normal. It's called condensation. Once the car warms up to normal temp, the exhaust should be clear. If you still see smoke, grey or black, you have a problem. Grey is water/coolant, black is oil, neither is good.

Will gas treatment like Lucas help clean valves? Is there anywhere someone can look to see if the motor has any sludge?

As for the timing, which I never seen answered, these cars adjust their own timing automatically. No adjustments to make or needed. The only deal with timing that you can control is a timing belt issue that would NOT be good.

 

Also, J, Check your oil weekly to make sure you're not running it low. check it in the am before you start it.

I use full synthetic, Castrol, 10w-30 but prefer 10w-40 (which I could not find last time). I don't use high milage oil because if these motors have been taken care of, regular oil changes (not like the 10,000 miles they recommend), they could easily last 500,000 miles. So, I think 350,000 would classify them as High Mileage. If the motor isn't loosing 1 quart per 2,000 miles, don't consider it high mileage. Some cars wear different and are pretty worn at 200,000.

As for it becoming a sticky... Lets see what works out for you. We like to sticky results, not so much the speculations. LOL

 

Hey J, How long have you had the car? How many miles does it have? How many miles do you drive per month?

A lot of people are glad to get a good looking, quality car that has been parked somewhere for several months but they seldom know how to wake that car up. The worse thing someone can do with a car that they picked up out of someone's yard is charge the battery and hit the starter.


IMO, a car should really be preped before the starter switch is hit. I would recommend the following:

1. Have the car towed home or where you can do some work on it.
2. Drain all the fuel out of the car. Hooking something up to the fuel rail and turning the fuel pump on to pump the old gas out might be the best direction. Maybe jump the fuel pump, but don't try to start it and dump that old BAD fuel through the injectors and motor. From what I have read, if a car is parked without a fuel stabilizer added will allow the gas to turn into terpentine or something.
3. Drain and change the oil and filter. You don't want to pump that old nasty oil through the motor.
4. If the car has been sitting longer than 6 months, change the fuel filter and air filters. You really don't want to hit the starter and risk blowing deteriorated filter particles though the system. Also, if critters (mice, etc.) have made their way into the intake or air box, you don't want to suck their nest into the intake.
5. Bleed the brakes, and maybe even flush the brake system with new fluid.
6. Change the antifreeze/coolant.
7. Check the belts for cracks, change any that needs it, including the timing belt.
8. If you don't know the age of the timing belt, replace it with the rollers (especially if the car has been sitting over 12 months).
9. Install a new battery if the one in the car is over 24 months old.
10. Turn the car over by hand twice after you change fluids.
11. Then try to start the car.

I know how exciting it can be to get your hands on an old car that you are hopefully getting a deal on (if not free), but you really should protect your new jewel by taking the above precausions.

 

Oh, wow, rspi, I didn't know you posted that much, just got notification of one post there! Sorry I haven't responded!
I have had the car for over a year now, before that some punk kid had it for like 6 months and wanted something "fun" but he bought it from a police auction, so no idea where the car was or what it was doing before that. Could have been sitting for 5 years, or 5 days. No idea.

Since I've had it, I've driven it on the highway at least once a week, and around town pretty much every day (less lately, still about 3-4 days a week) and it never had engine problems until this incident (I'm thinking it will have been an isolated one)

I admit to running regular grade fuel more often than I should, but I've had so many issues with the trans (or trans controller, rather...) that I wasn't worried about the motor so much.

There is of course white smoke in the winter, but it smells quite strong, and after the white color goes away, there is sometimes still visible smoke, but it's too light to tell if it's oil or coolant. Doesn't smell like oil, not sure what burnt coolant smells like...

Book says never change coolant on these :-) Flush her anyway?

Ok, but back to the oil, when I drained it a few weeks ago, it came out like TAR, so I know something funky is up. It was like pancake syrup mixed with...dirt...and...ok it wasn't THAT thick, but it was nasty black. Like it was full of carbon. That was after 2k miles since last change.

Funky smell is still around, all my reservoirs show good levels and don't drop... mouse made a home in my CAT??

I WILL solve this mystery, and get her purring - and then if I can't get the trans right, I'm moving on (my wife just got a new Saab 900s, so I'm dreaming of turbos... maybe a 2/740 or 7/850 T in my future... as long as the next one has a clutch pedal!!)

 

Good to hear that you've had a car for a while (longer than a few weeks). Sounds like you have dislogged some engine sludge. My oil usually comes out a little dirty but not real bad, next time rub some between your fingers to feel if it is smooth still, like new oil. When you drained the oil, was it hot? Most people drain the oil after the car is warmed up so it drains good.

A lot of people run 87 octane and my favorite mechanic swears that running higher octane is a total waste of money. The owners manual says 87 is the minimum. I wouldn't worry about it, just some people experience pinging and some mechanics claim it can cause burnt valves.

If you smell exhaust, it is likely a cat going bad. If it was plugged up by some rodent it would not want to run at all. Remember, carbon minoxide is odorless. After the car is warm the exhaust should be clear so something is going on, maybe no big deal as long as you keep stay on top of maintenance, maybe you will have no more wear. If it gets worse you may have to track it down and get it fixed.

I have NO IDEA why Volvo says to never change the coolant. Maybe they think the stuff they use never gets dirty or breaks down. Not sure if that's true but I normally try to do it every 100k or 5 years.