Different Sort of Junkyard Question
 

Hey folks- I own an 850 wagon but this is a (sort of) related question with respect to my local U Pull It yard. This is kinda out there but give me a chance here.

My 12 year old future scientist has started an periodic table element collection- you know: carbon, lithium, copper, lead, krypton etc... I think he is up to about 20 of them. We were talking last night and wondered about elements I could obtain easily and cheaply at my local junkyard. Catalytic converters for example (I think) contain platinum and a few other elements. Electronics have an array of elements too. Platinum is quite valuable I think. Is it even safe to cut open a catalytic converter?

Has anyone ever asked about this? Just wondering, not ready to go hack sawing just yet, but thought there might be a few other geeks besides me that might have some knowledge about this.

Thanks! Dave

It is totally safe to cut into a catalytic converter but I doubt that you will find one on a Volvo in a salvage yard. There is, give or take, $150.00 worth of platinum in each Volvo converter. That is the market price in its adulterated form so one of the first things that a salvage yard does is chop it off and sell it.

Assuming that you can find one, when you cut into the converter you won't find any pure platinum. It is infused into or lightly coated onto other base metals.

...Lee

Silicon, aluminum, iron, magnesium, carbon....those are probably gonna be the extent of "pure" elements you'l find on cars in a junk yard. I say pure in quotations because you're going to have a lot of alloying in most metals. Aluminum, for instance, probably has some copper, manganese, zinc, magnesium, or silicon in it. if you're serious about finding a lot of avant garde stuff, let me know, I can hit up the material science lab at purdue and see if i can find you anything interesting.

Oh, and a catalytic converter is gonna contain platinum, rhodium, and palladium, but you're not going to be able to extract and isolate it unless you have the right equipment and know what you are doing.

elements
 

all- thanks for the notes. yeah guess I havent actually looked at my yard for any cats. I bet they do torch those out as soon as they come in. I might take a look next time im over there. the yard price for a muffler is $6.50, cat might be $100- dont know. and I'm not doing that!

Yes, I'm no expert and dont have any special equipment-just hacksaw and nippers (ha!) We have most of the basics, but a little chunk of platinum or rhodium would really be cool if I could find it. I'd even wrap it up for Christmas! Dave

the platinum, rhodium, and palladium is chemically bonded within other metals - there are no "chunks" except on a microstructure scale. it would be the same as you trying to remove sodium from table salt.

I have read that it is against the LAW to sell a used catalytic converter in the US. So, you will NOT find any in our junk yards.

elements
 

Well maybe i'll have to keep looking. but it was worth the forum post. Seems like if they are getting torched out of each scrap car, someone must be doing something with them- that is if there is some way of extracting the valuables back out. Dave

There is definitely a way to extract the metals. That's why if you have enough of them it's worth trying to sell them to the right recycler.


If you're thinking of some kind of DIY operation it'd likely be easier, cheaper and safer to just buy a sample some place.

Ceramic parts of catalytic converter are cut away from the exhaust.
The ceramic parts are grinded in the ball bearing mill until they become like flour.
It is put into reaction with HCl in the leach tank, and platinum and palladium are dissolved in acid; acid is filtered and separated from the ceramic. Platinum and palladium dissolved in acid are precipitated and filtered; this platinum-palladium mixture is recycled separately as platinum and palladium.
If the ceramic contains rhodium, it is put into reaction with NaHSO4 in the fusion oven, and rhodium is transformed into RhSO4. RhSO4 is dissolved in water and so is separated from ceramic; the solution is filtered and taken away, and rhodium is recycled from this solution by precipitation.

List of necessary equipment:
Cutting scissors (hydraulic)
Ball bearing mill
Leach tank
Solid liquid filtration system
Refining machine
Fusion oven
Fusion smoke filter
Melting oven
Oxygen propane system to melt platinum, palladium and rhodium.

Plus the chemicals


This company has a 500 unit minimum
Platinum refiner, Platinum refiners, Platinum refinery, Platinum smelter, Platinum buyer. We refine and buy platinum scrap, platinum wire, thermocouple wire, platinum group metals, platinum catalyst, and more. Deal direct with a refiner - Specialty M

Yea, the jy is. Selling them off to someplace. The main jy here also removes the alluminum alloy wheels. Can't get a one of them.

Kiss: sounds about right, though ive heard of it being done with other than NaSO4....IIRC, the process I saw was with NH3.

If you cut, file, sand or do anything similar to metals, be sure to wear eye protection & respirator (dust mask). Fine Aluminium particles are known to accumulate in the brain if taken internally and can trigger Alzheimer's disease.

I would also teach your future scientist a good habit to wear gloves too.

If you asked this question several months earlier, I could have gotten a sheet of aluminium-alloy (2000-copper), nickel-alloy in a form of jet engine's turbine blade, etc... Titanium-alloy (fan blades on GE-90 (not GE90-115B/119B that are carbon composite with Titanium-alloy L/E protector), CF-6, PW-2000 & 4000) was a bit too large & heavy to take home, however.

JPN

I recently heard that. They are also finding an accumulation of teflon in the brans of these patients. Nuts. They say we should go back to cooking with cast iron pans because out bodies process iron different than it does aluminum and teflon.

cast iron pans are all I use.

elements
 

wow! thanks for the replys- I figured I'd find some knowledgeable engineer types who really know this stuff. My boy has element flash cards, we were doing them last night, it's amazing to me how well he knows this stuff. Get him into chem lab!

I'm not ready to boil, centrifuge and go to any extreme measures to obtain these cat internals, we're prety amature over here. Maybe go to a gem and mineral show. We have a nice chunk of silicon, krypton bulb, aluminum lump, carbon (coal), zinc (plated bolt). Kinda fun.

At the JY, what about magnesium (castings?) tungsten or Xenon (bulbs?) tantalum (electronics?) or others? Is mercury in there somewhere? Dave

Most of the elements you have mentioned are safe, as long as you don't inhale or take them orally/from an open wound.

However, a few notes:

- Magnesium: Extremely flammable, sometimes it can explode with sufficient quantity. Invest in a Class-D fire extinguisher.

- Krypton: A pure form of Krypton can cause hypoxia (lack of oxygen) so keep it to a minimum.

- Zinc: If vapour is inhaled, respiratory malfunction can occur which leads to convulsion.

No mercury seems to be included in above materials.

If you & your scientist do whatever that releases vapour/fine particle, a dust mask won't do any good. You need a tight-fit mask with material-specific filter cartridge.

P.S, I build a lot of plastic models that involves a number of solvents, paints & chemicals. I wear 2-stage filtered mask (micron particle filter + organic vapour cartridge).

JPN