Haha wow, now even you can't follow your own logic.

You clearly referenced me saying maintenance is required for everything, even printers by replying and saying that in that case, I would be okay if you made me disassemble the whole printer to replace common wear parts.

To which I replied saying your comparison is not logical.

To which you replied changing your comparison.


But if you want to do that, fine. But don't do it with made up numbers.

Radius arm bushings pay 4.1 hours to replace them on both sides on your Bronco.

Control arms pay 1.4 hours to replace both.

At $20 each and $100/hr labor, the radius arm bushings cost $450.

At $200 each and $100/hr labor, the control arms cost $540.

For the radius arm bushing job, you get just the bushings.

For the control arm job, you get the front and rear bushing and the ball joint in each control arm.

"Radius arm bushings pay 4.1 hours" is for people who don't know how to do it... :)

"Control arms pay 1.4 hours to replace both" is for superman... :)


Look who is apple orange now... :)

Are you really that stupid? Changing course, AGAIN. You were the one comparing the radius arms to control arms. Since I live in the real world where we deal with facts, I provided facts that you are clueless about. Those are straight out of the labor time guide. That is what a shop will charge for the job.

Does either job take that long? I haven't done the radius arm bushings, but I doubt it takes 4.1 hours. I have done the control arms, and they take about 10 minutes each (which would also prove you wrong). You also have to take more apart to do the bushings. The arms require nothing else to be removed.

This is the second time you want to try to debate without providing any facts to support your argument. Instead, you pick and choose what to address and what not to address And go back and forth with your logic.

"labor time guide" can be for the stupid too...:)


I did radius arm bushings many times so I know it takes 10 minutes for both sides now (it took me 4 hours the first time)...

Oh yeah? So if you take your car to the shop and you know the job pays 1 hour and they quote you 2.5 hours, what do you do?

Probably ask why there is a difference (as you should). Then if they say "the labor time is for the stupid" you're okay with that explanation?

Simple: find another shop... :)


But before I go anywhere, I usually have a list of work I need, parts requirement, assembly requirement, points of inspection requirement, etc. clearly stated and agreed.


This way, I can compare apple to apple... :)

So you are the only one who can decide when the labor time guide applies or when it is stupid?

And if you find out that the 1 hour paying job takes 20 minutes, do you insist that the shop charged under the standard time?

I decide which shop to use based on my requirements.

I care about quality of work and cost, not hours. If one shop need to wait 2 days for a state inspector, guess who is going to pay?

And is one of your requirements that the shop be willing to do the job for less than book time just because it takes less than book time?

Waiting for an inspector has nothing to do with this, so quit changing course again.

Again: I don't care about time. It's quality and total cost.

Time and cost are related. So you care about time. You want to pay someone for less time than they should be paid for the job.

Well, I don't know about you; but whenever I hire somebody, I ALWAYS pay for the job, not for the hours. Because what I found is if I pay for hours, they ALWAYS try to make it longer. I guess this is called human nature...

I also don't want them to tell me hours because if they do, they ALWAYS try to finish it within the hours and that usually means lousy jobs. This is also human nature.

That's how shops work. If you want to complain about that, go ahead. But that's how it works in the US.

It works both ways. If I get paid 8 hours a day, no matter what, what incentive do I have to work quickly? I could take all week to fix 6 cars.

I know you don't care about time, but a shop owner or dealer principal doesn't want their guys sandbagging.

And yes, it is possible to work quickly and still do the job correctly. I can do those control arms in 10 minutes each. No shortcuts. Just familiarity.

I won't argue that it could mean some guys do take shortcuts. I've seen plenty of cars come in hacked up from someone else. But if the hackjob mechanic hacked your car, it doesn't mean it was just to beat the time. It could be laziness. He would do the same thing if he was being paid hourly. So the problem you think you are avoiding isn't avoided.

I get paid book time. I do the job right in under book time.

And you want to pay for the job, not the time. Well then, how does a shop price the job? You call one shop and his guys have never done the job. So his price is high. You call my shop and I can do them in 10 minutes. Why should I be paid less for my training and familiarity than the guy who will struggle with the job? That's where the time guide comes in.

How a shop works internally is not my concern and shouldn't be my concern...

But if a better shop can finish the work sooner, they maybe able to use better quality parts instead of spending all the labor money on labor.

If you can finish an hour's work in 10 minutes, that doesn't do you any good either because you didn't use the extra 50 minutes making more money but rather wasted it, right?

So paying by time doesn't do anybody any good, right?

How a shop works internally is not my concern and shouldn't be my concern...

It should be if you're paying them for labor. You don't understand how it works, and that might be why you have such a problem understanding what I'm saying.

If you can finish an hour's work in 10 minutes, that doesn't do you any good either because you didn't use the extra 50 minutes making more money but rather wasted it, right?

Wrong.

Let's use your control arms. They pay 1.4 hours for the pair. I can do them in about 10 minutes each.

So after about 30-40 minutes of being at work (accounting for getting the car, getting the parts, test driving after, parking the car, etc.), I have 1.4 hours.

Now I pull in the next car. Maybe it pays 3 hours and takes 1 hour.

So after being at work under 2 hours, I have 3.4 hours. You can see how this adds up. I've had some weeks where I have worked 40-43 hours and booked 75+ hours.

Then they are supposed to pay overtime,don't they?

Nope. We don't get overtime because of how our hours are calculated.

A little bit risky for the employer: Walmart got sued sometime ago for not paying overtime...

Those are hourly employees. I am not.

I'll gladly work 43 hours if I'm getting paid for 70.

When it's slow and I'm going to have under 40 hours, you won't see me staying late.

You are an hourly employee if you are paid by hours...

That's why I suggested a job oriented system, I will pay by jobs: I will name a 1.5 hour job as Job1.5 and also code different level jobs with letters with A to be the most difficult one. So a JobA1.5 will be paid more than a JobB1.5. This way a skillful worker will get paid more even he works the same hours.