1988 240 , no spark

  #1  
Old 11-04-2018, 03:39 PM
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Default 1988 240 , no spark

88 240dl sedan died going down the hill
yes it has fuel. Both pumps are working
CAR HAS NO CRANK POSITION SENSOR
Main 25amp fuse is good
Timing belt looks good and spins good
NO SPARK
replaced the spark plugs, wirrs, cap and rotor
Replaced the coil
Replaced the Hall sender
Replaced the engine control module.
Still no spark.
 
  #2  
Old 11-04-2018, 06:48 PM
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that main 25A fuse is strictly for the fuel injection system. by 'engine control module', do you mean the ECU thats just forward of the passenger front door hinges? or the ICU (Ignition control unit) thats on the right fender just behind the headlight ?

the ignition coil has two pins on the sides, pin 1 comes from the ICU (Ignition Control Unit), and pin 15 is power from the ignition switch. turn the key on, make sure you have 12V at pin 15 relative to ground. get a 12V test light, connect it from pin 1 to ground, and have someone crank the car, does the light blink ?
 
  #3  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post
that main 25A fuse is strictly for the fuel injection system. by 'engine control module', do you mean the ECU thats just forward of the passenger front door hinges? or the ICU (Ignition control unit) thats on the right fender just behind the headlight ?

the ignition coil has two pins on the sides, pin 1 comes from the ICU (Ignition Control Unit), and pin 15 is power from the ignition switch. turn the key on, make sure you have 12V at pin 15 relative to ground. get a 12V test light, connect it from pin 1 to ground, and have someone crank the car, does the light blink ?
Yes tried that light blinks as engine is crankijg. And replaced the ignition control module that is behind the right headlight
 
  #4  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:42 PM
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pull the distributor cap, ensure the rotor turns when the engine is cranked


if you got timing pulses on pin 1, and power on pin 15, its virtually IMPOSSIBLE you don't have spark unless one or more of the components you replaced is bad.

unplug the coil HV wire from the distributor, hold it very near a ground (using a well insulated grabber tool...), crank, you should see a strong spark from it. if you don't, its a bad coil, or a bad HV wire.

if you do, then something is wrong with that distributor. maybe its 180 out of phase so the wrong plug is sparking at the wrong time, or something.
 
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post
pull the distributor cap, ensure the rotor turns when the engine is cranked


if you got timing pulses on pin 1, and power on pin 15, its virtually IMPOSSIBLE you don't have spark unless one or more of the components you replaced is bad.

unplug the coil HV wire from the distributor, hold it very near a ground (using a well insulated grabber tool...), crank, you should see a strong spark from it. if you don't, its a bad coil, or a bad HV wire.

if you do, then something is wrong with that distributor. maybe its 180 out of phase so the wrong plug is sparking at the wrong time, or something.
rotor turns made sure of it. No power is going from the hv wire to the cap. Tried grounding out but nothing.

​​​ if it was180 out of phase it would still show spark it is showing 0
 
  #6  
Old 11-04-2018, 09:07 PM
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I have timing pulses on pin one but don't think I have constant power at pin 15
 
  #7  
Old 11-04-2018, 10:08 PM
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oh. pin 15 should be directly connected to the ignition switch... circuit 15 is on when in run and start.

lets see, Ignition switch pin '15' has a blue-yellow wire that goes to the 'input' side of fuse 12 (which is also tied to the input side of fuses 11 and 13 via a bus bar inside the fuse block). the input side of fuse 11 has a blue wire which runs directly to coil pin 15. note that this circuit is NOT going through any fuse, they are just using the fuse block as a handy place to tap the ignition switched power.

when you look at the fuse block thats behind the panel at left of the drivers legs, on the right side of each fuse is 3 spade lugs. the right/forward most spade is the 'input' and is connected to the far (left) side of the fuse, while the left and middle spades are the 'output' side and are connected to the right side of the fuse.

coil pin 15 actually has TWO wires, the other one goes to ICU pin 2 and provides the power to the ignition control unit.

so... check to see that fuses 11/12/13 are powered when the ignition switch is on. check to see that there is a blue-yellow wire on the right-most terminal next to fuse 12, and a blue wire on the right-most terminal next to fuse 11. if there's no power at the blue-yellow wire, then perhaps your ignition switch is the problem ?

all my left/right directions are relative to the car, from the perspective of the seated driver...
 
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post
oh. pin 15 should be directly connected to the ignition switch... circuit 15 is on when in run and start.

lets see, Ignition switch pin '15' has a blue-yellow wire that goes to the 'input' side of fuse 12 (which is also tied to the input side of fuses 11 and 13 via a bus bar inside the fuse block). the input side of fuse 11 has a blue wire which runs directly to coil pin 15. note that this circuit is NOT going through any fuse, they are just using the fuse block as a handy place to tap the ignition switched power.

when you look at the fuse block thats behind the panel at left of the drivers legs, on the right side of each fuse is 3 spade lugs. the right/forward most spade is the 'input' and is connected to the far (left) side of the fuse, while the left and middle spades are the 'output' side and are connected to the right side of the fuse.

coil pin 15 actually has TWO wires, the other one goes to ICU pin 2 and provides the power to the ignition control unit.

so... check to see that fuses 11/12/13 are powered when the ignition switch is on. check to see that there is a blue-yellow wire on the right-most terminal next to fuse 12, and a blue wire on the right-most terminal next to fuse 11. if there's no power at the blue-yellow wire, then perhaps your ignition switch is the problem ?

all my left/right directions are relative to the car, from the perspective of the seated driver...
​​​​​​Thank you for the info Pierce. Will try these later today and let you know how I make out
 
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:07 PM
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Just got done working on the Volvo. Fuse 11, 12 and 13 all have power to them with the key on. I then checked both sides of the coil again with a multimeter. The blue wire had 11.5 volts and the black\red wire had about 6. Does this tell you anything. Thanks
 
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Old 11-05-2018, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post
oh. pin 15 should be directly connected to the ignition switch... circuit 15 is on when in run and start.

lets see, Ignition switch pin '15' has a blue-yellow wire that goes to the 'input' side of fuse 12 (which is also tied to the input side of fuses 11 and 13 via a bus bar inside the fuse block). the input side of fuse 11 has a blue wire which runs directly to coil pin 15. note that this circuit is NOT going through any fuse, they are just using the fuse block as a handy place to tap the ignition switched power.

when you look at the fuse block thats behind the panel at left of the drivers legs, on the right side of each fuse is 3 spade lugs. the right/forward most spade is the 'input' and is connected to the far (left) side of the fuse, while the left and middle spades are the 'output' side and are connected to the right side of the fuse.

coil pin 15 actually has TWO wires, the other one goes to ICU pin 2 and provides the power to the ignition control unit.

so... check to see that fuses 11/12/13 are powered when the ignition switch is on. check to see that there is a blue-yellow wire on the right-most terminal next to fuse 12, and a blue wire on the right-most terminal next to fuse 11. if there's no power at the blue-yellow wire, then perhaps your ignition switch is the problem ?

all my left/right directions are relative to the car, from the perspective of the seated driver...
Just got done working on the Volvo. Fuse 11, 12 and 13 all have power to them with the key on. I then checked both sides of the coil again with a multimeter. The blue wire had 11.5 volts and the black\red wire had about 6. Does this tell you anything. Thanks
 
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Old 11-06-2018, 05:30 PM
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ok, so if the coil has power, and pin 1 is pulsing when you crank the car, then either you should be getting spark, or its bad coil.
 
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post
ok, so if the coil has power, and pin 1 is pulsing when you crank the car, then either you should be getting spark, or its bad coil.
Since the coil is brand new is there a way to test it?
 
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Old 11-06-2018, 09:30 PM
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apply 12V to pin 15, pulse pin 1 to ground, see if you get a spark from the HV wire each time you tap 1 to ground..
 

Last edited by pierce; 11-06-2018 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 11-06-2018, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post
apply 12V to pin 15, pulse pin 1 to ground, see if you get a spark from the HV wire each time you tap 1 to ground..
Pin 15 is the black red wire correct?
 
  #15  
Old 11-06-2018, 10:35 PM
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the side terminals on the coil should be labeled 15, 1 ... 15 should have two BLUE wires, one with ignition switched power, the other carries that same power to the ICU. the control wire to pin 1 from the ICU (and optionally to the tachometer) is grey on the 1987-1988 240 schematics I'm looking at.

the wiring diagrams for 87/88 show a red/black wire going to the ECU (fuel injection control unit) and the fuel pump relay, these are both under the passenger side dashboard, nowhere near the coil...
 
  #16  
Old 11-07-2018, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post
the side terminals on the coil should be labeled 15, 1 ... 15 should have two BLUE wires, one with ignition switched power, the other carries that same power to the ICU. the control wire to pin 1 from the ICU (and optionally to the tachometer) is grey on the 1987-1988 240 schematics I'm looking at.

the wiring diagrams for 87/88 show a red/black wire going to the ECU (fuel injection control unit) and the fuel pump relay, these are both under the passenger side dashboard, nowhere near the coil...
ok thank you will let you know what I figure out
 
  #17  
Old 11-07-2018, 02:27 PM
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I figured out that when I crank the car over I am not getting a pulsating signal at the coil. Instead when I have key on power the light is bright with a test light then when I crank the light gets dimmer in the test lamp
 
  #18  
Old 11-07-2018, 04:45 PM
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ok, no timing pulses then.... that means the problem is the hall sensor or the ICU is not working (or a wiring issue between them). I dunno if you can 'back probe' the plug on the Chrysler ICU, but if you can, you could verify that pin 1 of the ICU also doesn't have pulses when the engine is cranked over... that should be a grey wire, same as whats connected to coil pin 1.

the plug on that chrysler ICU is quite fragile and needs to be handled carefully, do NOT rock it if you unplug it, you need to pull it straight out, and it has a rather high insertion force.

the hall sensor should have 3 wires, pin "-" is black wire. pin '0' is yellow, and pin '+' is green. the yellow and green wire are a 'balanced circuit', and the signal on them is a very weak differential pulse, very hard to measure if you don't have an oscilloscope.
 
  #19  
Old 11-07-2018, 04:50 PM
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I just had someone put this in for me.
 
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Old 11-07-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike244DL View Post
I just had someone put this in for me.
I just had someone put a new Hall sender in
 

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