Long story short, son was driving the 95 850 Turbo. lower radiator hose blew. He did not notice it until the coolant light came on. He said he looked down and saw the temp gauge at full hot. (he said he looked at it about a minute earlier and it was at 3 O'clock, so I say it was full hot for about a minute at highway speed. He put some water in it and decided to drive it 10 miles home. He said gauge never got above 3/4 the rest of the way home but when he got home I saw the overflow tank was totally empty and the engine was smoking a bit

Here is where we are at now. It cooled down so after fixing the hose I filled it with just plain water to see what I could see. It cranked slowly at first but started. As soon as it started the water erupted like a geyser from the open coolant overflow tank, and it idled roughly. I shut it off, put the cap on the overflow tank and started it again. It idled pretty rough but once you revved it, it ran smooth and the idle smoothed out a bit. But the bad thing is the upper radiator hose got hard as a rock, and I get significant white smoke out the exhaust (rythmic puffing of the smoke)

Best case scenario is blown head gasket and possibly cracked head. Oil pressure by gauge is 20-25 at idle and 45-50 at 3000 RPM when revved. Did not see any water on the dipstick and no black oily residue in the coolant tank, just a little rusty water.

So, what do I do next? Should I do a compression check and will that tell me anything else? What I am basically trying to figure out is do I have just a blown head gasket, a blown head gasket and a bad head, or if I need a whole new motor.

Really need some help here folks.

Thanks,

Glenn

 

Forgot to add, the oil looks ok (no water droplets on the dipstick, and no milkshake looking foam on it and the level is fine. however, the oil looks a dark brown and has a pretty good burned smell to it....

 

This is where full synthetic helps. If you believe the motor was strong before the mishap, I'd say just do a head gasket.

My daughter was on a road trip when she ran out of coolant, blew a hose and started feeling heat in the air conditioned car. She looked down and seen the needle raising in the red. He mind remembered my word "TURN THE CAR OFF, THEN PULL OVER". She claims that is what she did. Put water in it and drove it 7 miles to Auto Zone where they replaced the hose for her and she continued her trip. Head badly warped once I pulled it but that is all I had to do is have the head rebuilt and replace the head gasket.

I really believe full synthetic oil helps.

I would just do the head gasket. If the head gasket blew, which is sounds like it did, when you take the head into the shop to have it leveled, they will tell you if it can be leveled or need to be replaced. You can actually purchase a read head from Clearwater Heads (something like that) for about $450 shipped. Having my head rebuilt cost me $433. The job cost me about $850 so replacing the motor yourself would be a cheaper route to go, if you can get a motor out of pull a part for less than $250. I did NOT do a new timing belt or PCV, those were in good shape.

My info is linked below. I hope everyone understands that a blown coolant hose will cause your car to over heat in LESS THAN A MINUTE at highway speeds.

Link: http://atthetipwebs.com/technologyin...ead_gasket.htm

All a compression test will tell you is which location the gasket blew/where the head is warped. If you have no oil in the water or water in oil, the block is likely fine. You can inspect it when you pull the head but if it runs it's likely fine.

 

So, what do I do next? Should I do a compression check and will that tell me anything else? What I am basically trying to figure out is do I have just a blown head gasket, a blown head gasket and a bad head, or if I need a whole new motor.

From the outside a compression test is only going to tell you the compression pressure and a bad head gasket, cracked head, bad rings, cracked block will all show up as a low compression reading.

If you have a geyser spewing out the expansion tank you have to take the head off at a minimum. Ususally it's just the head gasket as it's the weak link and lets go before anything else fails.

When you take it apart, inspect the head gasket to see if you see a failure point. If you do, then it's likely all you need is to have the head checked at a machine shop, surfaced if necessary and then inspect the cylinder walls and button it back up and you'd be good.

 

Having synthetic oil won't save a head gasket if the car is driven with no coolant.

 

The real lesion here is to replace all coolant hoses when they show signs of wear or every 10 years. A blown coolant hose will dump the coolant and over heat the motor in about 30 seconds.

 

Thanks guys for the info. Here is where I am at mentally on this... I know the head is probably shot, so I'll pull it off and take it in to a machine shop and have them look at it. But, the kid put regular dino oil in it when he changed the oil about 1000 miles ago. Do you think that sine the car got that hot and the oil looks moderately brown and smells burnt that he did more damage to it than just the head/gasket? Also, since the transmission cooler lines run through the radiator and the car was run for probably 10-12 miles with a totally dry radiator, could the transmission got cooked as well?

I guess where I am going at is that I want to get it fixed and back on the road as economically as possible, but I do not want to half-*** it as well. My two options are pull head and see about that, or go ahead and put in a new motor. What do you think..... Also, the car is starting to show its age in regards to paint and interior wear, but up until now ran great and used no fluids. All maint is up do date (timing belt and all pulleys done about 1000 miles ago) and tires have only about 8000 miles on them.....

 

Ok, an update. (sorry for so many posts, but <grin>)

The car sat stone cold for 36 hours. I went and checked it out and here is what I found, Oil is a bit darker than it should be for only 1000 miles, and looks to be down about 1/2 a quart (maybe). No evidence of water in it at all, but it definitely got heated up. Everything else looked good, so I fired it up.

It cranked a bit slow and took an extra second or so to light off, but it fired up fine. Idled rough for about 5 seconds then smoothed right out. Revved it up smoothy a few times, and let it idle again. Engine sounds smooth, no knocks or strange sounds, no major leaks, but it is blowing white smoke out the tailpipe like a mosquito fogger. Upper radiator hose is ROCK hard and when I popped the overflow tank cap it let off a LOT of pressure. It only had water in it to check it out, and the water in the tank smelled like exhaust gas.

Here is what I am thinking....Definitely a blown head gasket. based on looking at the oil, and how it ran, I'm thinking everything else is ok and I'm most likely looking at a head gasket and getting the head checked out by a local machine shop. Or should I just bite the bullet and buy a new/reworked head and a gasket and go from there. Again, I value all opinions and advice, so please sound off. I'm leaning toward fixing the head instead of a new motor, as the cheapest I can find a motor around here is $600 plus tax!.....
Thanks,

Glenn

 

From the description I'd say you only lost the head gasket. Maybe, maybe a warp in the head. Both relatively easy and not that expensive to fix.

In almost all cases you can overheat the engine and lose the coolant for a short period of time and not damage the engine. The problem is I've never been able to trust a customer. When "they" say the light just came on and they pulled over some times the part they don't say is at the next exit 25 miles down the road because the others didn't have a McRestaurant or bar. So it's hard to say how badly others have overheated theirs, how long they actually ran it. In your case it's second hand from your son and at times there can be a problem there where someone will minimize something thinking they might get in trouble. OR . . . the person who has the radio blaring, lost to the world and the lights been on for 20 minutes and they finally realize it.

The transmission uses the radiator as an added way to dissipate heat. Again, if your son was driving normally down the freeway, not towing a boat or pulling another car the transmissions temperature level likely wasn't much over normal. IF, IF the fluid looks a little dark once it's back running you could always do a flush or drain and fill and get some fresh stuff in there.

You'll need to change engine oil anyway as pulling a head always seems to let a little coolant drop into the pan.
The oil might be a little cooked and for this situation that would be understandable. Having driven only a short distance with the problem the oil may have started breaking down but it should still have protected the vital components and on a slightly "cooked" engine I haven't run across any that ever damaged internal engine parts. As long as the coolant wasn't going into the pan and diluting the oil. Even then they will run on the milk chocolate stuff for some time.

I had one where the guy had a leaking water pump but he wanted to wait to repair it. It was towed in on the weekend and Monday morning I recognized it. Went to check the coolant and the cap came off with the neck of the radiator attached. He cooked it so badly the engine was seized and wouldn't crank and it was so hot the solder holding the neck to the radiator had melted away !! That's hot.

In a situation like yours the oil starts to act as coolant and in my opinion this is where synthetic might make a difference in that it can handle a harsher environment better and longer. It won't prevent anything from failing only give you a little more time once something has gone wrong. How much it gives you ... seconds, minutes ?? That is a whole argument just waiting for discussion

Remember to replace the thermostat as it's likely cooked !! In any case it's not worth taking a chance it's damaged with a new head gasket.

I'd pull the head to do an inspection before buying anything. From there I'd choose taking the head to a shop or buying a reworked one, I'd start price shopping now and your choice depends on your wallet and the different time frames. Either way you should end up with pretty much the same quality head. Can you do an engine yourself or would you be paying someone to do it ?? Can you afford to have the car down for some time or is time more important than money ?? Your question is a bit more complicated as I don't know your "skills", situation or if you need wheels yesterday or can go a month while you tinker.
If you do what you say and the machine shop passes the head or you get rebuilt , replace the head gasket, LOF, trans fluid change and thermostat . . . from my experience you should have a 100K or more left in her.

 

Thanks for the GREAT response KissaFrog,

Well, I have removed and replaced a couple of engines and re-built a couple air and water cooled before, so I'm fairly sure I have the skill to fix this issue. Money is always a bit of a concern, but as for time, no big deal as it is the boys car and they can use mine from time to time if necessary. Besides, if they have to feel a little pain of inconvenience due to what happened, all the more of a learning lesson for him. Oh yes, he WILL be getting his hands dirty right along with me on this one!

I too agree that it looks like the motor has life left in her. Going to start pulling the head today.

 

Well, spent about five hours on the old girl yesterday. Got all the fluids drained (oil and water smelled like smoky exhaust gas) and got the all the way to getting the intake manifold off. Almost got the exhaust manifold off but one bolt (right by the turbo) is being a real BI**H! Soaking it with PB blaster until I can work on it again in a couple of days.

I told the boy we are shooting for late September to getting it back on the road. I know that sounds long, but I am having him help with most of the work so he can share the pain. Plus, I am simply going to take my time with this one. And the saga continues!

 

Hey man, the trans uses the rad as an independent system and should have NOT been effected at all. No coolant goes into the trans. Trans fluid goes into passages of the rad and back to the tranny. The fact that the coolant left the rad has no effect on the trans part of the rad.

The motor is likely fine. I would have done a compression test, if the motor had a good block, good compression (on the cylinders that were not effected by the blow head gasket), I would just pull the head and let the shop tell you if it can be corrected.

The oil should get dark in 1,000 miles. My full synthetic does when it is run 1,000 miles. I sent a dirty 5,000 mile sample to BlackStone labs and they claim my motor is in great shape.

I wouldn't worry about the block, just to see if the head is repairable. If it is NOT, get another one.

 

On another note, your son may be able to do the job himself, if he uses the instructions I made on my site. Removal should take 4 hours max. Shop a couple of days. Clean up about 3 hours. Install about 4 hours. I'd let him loose on it, maybe just get involved with the torquing and timing.

 

Sounds like a plan to me!!

Glenn

 

I'm guessing, , , but I think the OP might have been concerned with the transmission overheating and being damaged by not being able to transfer heat to the coolant as the transmission does relay on the coolant to cool itself similar to the engine, just not as much.

 

You got it. I did check the fluid and it looks ok but I might just do a flush and fill to be on the safe side once we get it up and running again.

 

Well, I finally got the cylinder head off the boys car. Sure enough, he blew the head gasket (in three different places!) I'll take it into the machine shop tomorrow to see if the head is warped or (God forbid) cracked. Overall, the head, block, and mating surfaces look pretty good and I think the weak link was the gasket and it gave out first. Some evidence that the motor got pretty toasty when it overheated, but there was NO water in the cylinders, and no scoring of the pistons or cylinder walls. I think we got lucky, but we shall see.....

 

I believe you'll be fine (motor lower end). I've never heard of anyone having a cracked head, just warped. The shop can replace the valve stem seals for you while they have it.

 

Got the report on the head from the shop. It is not cracked but VERY warped according to the machinist. He said he does not think it can be shaved flat without making it too thin because of how warped it is. I've never heard of not being able to flatten out a warped head, but this is my first time dealing with an 850 head. What do you think? Is he telling me a story or could it have warped that badly?

I called around to several wrecking yards and I found a replacement head (a turbo head is hard to find but the NA ones seem plentiful). Anyway, I found one that came off a 2005 S60R with about 100K on it. Cars was wrecked but never overheated according to the salvage yard. they also said the head would fit a 1995 850 turbo. My question for the experts is WILL IT? I know most of the 2.3 motors were the same over the years, but I need to know since the block is a 1995 and the head will be a 2005!

Many thanks for any help. Really want to get the kids car back on the road

Glenn

 

Glen, where are you located? There's a wrecking yard I go to A LOT up here, with numerous P80 cars to choose from. A '99 XC was recently added to the lot, and there's some older ones to choose from. Many of them are turbo cars, and I used to work there, so I could probably get you a VERY good deal on a cylinder head if you're interested.