Help! Car Won't Start
#1
04-06-2007, 02:25 PM
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Help! Car Won't Start
So I just got back from the dealer doing the fuel tank recall.
And I went into my garage, and I let the car idle for a bit. I turned the car off, and then restarted it.
I could hear the starter turning over, but it didn't seem to start the engine up.
A couple times however, the starter would turn over, my would rumble (that's what happen when I usually start the car) however, after that, the car is dead.
I hope this makes sense. Could this be a bad/wet coil (although everthing looks dry..)? [/align]
And I went into my garage, and I let the car idle for a bit. I turned the car off, and then restarted it.
I could hear the starter turning over, but it didn't seem to start the engine up.
A couple times however, the starter would turn over, my would rumble (that's what happen when I usually start the car) however, after that, the car is dead.
I hope this makes sense. Could this be a bad/wet coil (although everthing looks dry..)? [/align]
#2
04-06-2007, 03:02 PM
RE: Help! Car Won't Start
start with the most obvious. they did a recall on the fuel tank. what did they do exactly? was it the heat shield replacment?
Does the engine sound like its TRYING to start but doesnt? If so, most obvious would be that it wasnt getting fuel for some reason after the recall. Did they damage the fuel pump? Did they damage or neglect to reconnect the lines correctly?
Give me a little info on what the recall was.
Does the engine sound like its TRYING to start but doesnt? If so, most obvious would be that it wasnt getting fuel for some reason after the recall. Did they damage the fuel pump? Did they damage or neglect to reconnect the lines correctly?
Give me a little info on what the recall was.
#3
04-06-2007, 03:48 PM
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RE: Help! Car Won't Start
This is the text of the recall.
"In certain cases, after prolonged exposure to extreme heat, the fuel tank may develop a crack at the heat shield attachment. When this occurs, a fuel odor may be present and fuel seepage is possible."
Parts:
-1 Serv Camp 140
-4 Rubber Cushion
-4 Flange Nut
Could it be bad gas? The car definetely sounds like it's trying to start. You can hear the starter going, but no ignition of the engine.
Or if the engine starts, the car immediately goes dead. So starter -> Engine roars/car rumbles -> Engine is dead.
"In certain cases, after prolonged exposure to extreme heat, the fuel tank may develop a crack at the heat shield attachment. When this occurs, a fuel odor may be present and fuel seepage is possible."
Parts:
-1 Serv Camp 140
-4 Rubber Cushion
-4 Flange Nut
Could it be bad gas? The car definetely sounds like it's trying to start. You can hear the starter going, but no ignition of the engine.
Or if the engine starts, the car immediately goes dead. So starter -> Engine roars/car rumbles -> Engine is dead.
#4
04-06-2007, 04:11 PM
RE: Help! Car Won't Start
OK, that's what I figured the recall was. Although there's a number of factors, all hands point to fuel assuming that you didnt have trouble starting it BEFORE the recall. That being the case, I'd call the dealer immediately and tell them they screwed up. I wouldnt pay a time for them to find or fix the problem they created either. Even if that involves it being towed on a flatbed back since it won't start.
Does the sheet tell you if they just replaced the heat shield and it's reinforcement bushings? Or did it include the tank itself?
With this recall, if theres signs of cracks or leaks, they're supposed to replace the tank itself. If they replaced the tank, I would assume thats where the problem occurred.
If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say they they screwed something up in the process regardless. It's a little too coincidental to suddenly happen immediately after you just had the recall performed.
Does the sheet tell you if they just replaced the heat shield and it's reinforcement bushings? Or did it include the tank itself?
With this recall, if theres signs of cracks or leaks, they're supposed to replace the tank itself. If they replaced the tank, I would assume thats where the problem occurred.
If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say they they screwed something up in the process regardless. It's a little too coincidental to suddenly happen immediately after you just had the recall performed.
#5
04-06-2007, 04:23 PM
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RE: Help! Car Won't Start
^I just called the guy and they said all they installed were dampeners...And they don't mess w/ the tank itself/take anything apart so it couldn't be on their end...
The problem definetely has to do with the fuel, and you're right in saying that it's way too coincidental that the problem occurs right after I take it to the dealer...
The problem definetely has to do with the fuel, and you're right in saying that it's way too coincidental that the problem occurs right after I take it to the dealer...
#6
04-06-2007, 04:40 PM
RE: Help! Car Won't Start
I could've told you that the dealer was going to say:
"it's not on our end"
They only remove the tank itself if theres a sign of leak...or cracking. One of the reasons for the recall is that the dampeners they install arent there to protect it from overheating, and the shield can heat and shrivel, sometimes puncturing the tank and causing fire.
It's you're car man, but if it were me, I'd **** and moan and at least make an attempt at demanding that they take it back and that they find the problem that you never had until they did their recall. Have them inspect the pump for any issues. I'd get underneath if it were me, before calling, and look for any signs of issue. The pump itself may have been bumped etc. removing or breaking a wire or hose. The pumps for our 850's are inside the tank, although the wires, and hoses are exposed.
Also a possibility, although slim, is that they blew a relay or fuse for the pump when reconnecting the battery if they'd disconnected it during the recall.
Was it running when you got there to take it home? Or did it start right up when you tried?
It's possible it held pressure in the line still when you started it, and now that the pressure drained it's not enough to start it.
You're much better off if you can locate the problem before calling again, and then demand they fix it.
After you look for any obvious signs visually, I'd check the fuel pressure. You can get a gauge for relatively cheap at AutoZone type stores and hook into the fuel line under the hood. You should check the pressure with the key off, and then again with the key on. Let us know what you find from looking at it yourself.
"it's not on our end"
They only remove the tank itself if theres a sign of leak...or cracking. One of the reasons for the recall is that the dampeners they install arent there to protect it from overheating, and the shield can heat and shrivel, sometimes puncturing the tank and causing fire.
It's you're car man, but if it were me, I'd **** and moan and at least make an attempt at demanding that they take it back and that they find the problem that you never had until they did their recall. Have them inspect the pump for any issues. I'd get underneath if it were me, before calling, and look for any signs of issue. The pump itself may have been bumped etc. removing or breaking a wire or hose. The pumps for our 850's are inside the tank, although the wires, and hoses are exposed.
Also a possibility, although slim, is that they blew a relay or fuse for the pump when reconnecting the battery if they'd disconnected it during the recall.
Was it running when you got there to take it home? Or did it start right up when you tried?
It's possible it held pressure in the line still when you started it, and now that the pressure drained it's not enough to start it.
You're much better off if you can locate the problem before calling again, and then demand they fix it.
After you look for any obvious signs visually, I'd check the fuel pressure. You can get a gauge for relatively cheap at AutoZone type stores and hook into the fuel line under the hood. You should check the pressure with the key off, and then again with the key on. Let us know what you find from looking at it yourself.
#7
04-06-2007, 04:49 PM
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#8
04-06-2007, 04:54 PM
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RE: Help! Car Won't Start
ORIGINAL: JBVolvo
I could've told you that the dealer was going to say:
"it's not on our end"
They only remove the tank itself if theres a sign of leak...or cracking. One of the reasons for the recall is that the dampeners they install arent there to protect it from overheating, and the shield can heat and shrivel, sometimes puncturing the tank and causing fire.
It's you're car man, but if it were me, I'd **** and moan and at least make an attempt at demanding that they take it back and that they find the problem that you never had until they did their recall. Have them inspect the pump for any issues. I'd get underneath if it were me, before calling, and look for any signs of issue. The pump itself may have been bumped etc. removing or breaking a wire or hose. The pumps for our 850's are inside the tank, although the wires, and hoses are exposed.
Also a possibility, although slim, is that they blew a relay or fuse for the pump when reconnecting the battery if they'd disconnected it during the recall.
Was it running when you got there to take it home? Or did it start right up when you tried?
It's possible it held pressure in the line still when you started it, and now that the pressure drained it's not enough to start it. The guy who worked on my car/one of the techs there drove my car out, and then put it in the carwash for free. I was actually really happy. So when I got the car, it was running already.
However, I went back home, let the car idle, restarted and bam, it's dead.
You're much better off if you can locate the problem before calling again, and then demand they fix it.
After you look for any obvious signs visually, I'd check the fuel pressure. You can get a gauge for relatively cheap at AutoZone type stores and hook into the fuel line under the hood. You should check the pressure with the key off, and then again with the key on. Let us know what you find from looking at it yourself.
I could've told you that the dealer was going to say:
"it's not on our end"
They only remove the tank itself if theres a sign of leak...or cracking. One of the reasons for the recall is that the dampeners they install arent there to protect it from overheating, and the shield can heat and shrivel, sometimes puncturing the tank and causing fire.
It's you're car man, but if it were me, I'd **** and moan and at least make an attempt at demanding that they take it back and that they find the problem that you never had until they did their recall. Have them inspect the pump for any issues. I'd get underneath if it were me, before calling, and look for any signs of issue. The pump itself may have been bumped etc. removing or breaking a wire or hose. The pumps for our 850's are inside the tank, although the wires, and hoses are exposed.
Also a possibility, although slim, is that they blew a relay or fuse for the pump when reconnecting the battery if they'd disconnected it during the recall.
Was it running when you got there to take it home? Or did it start right up when you tried?
It's possible it held pressure in the line still when you started it, and now that the pressure drained it's not enough to start it. The guy who worked on my car/one of the techs there drove my car out, and then put it in the carwash for free. I was actually really happy. So when I got the car, it was running already.
However, I went back home, let the car idle, restarted and bam, it's dead.
You're much better off if you can locate the problem before calling again, and then demand they fix it.
After you look for any obvious signs visually, I'd check the fuel pressure. You can get a gauge for relatively cheap at AutoZone type stores and hook into the fuel line under the hood. You should check the pressure with the key off, and then again with the key on. Let us know what you find from looking at it yourself.
#9
04-06-2007, 05:50 PM
RE: Help! Car Won't Start
thats what I figured. otherwise, it probably wouldnt have started when you got there.
any luck with looking yourself? if they had a problem starting, they probably wouldnt have told you, nor would they have shut it off when they finally started it. Again, if they had done something that screwed up the pump, or fuel pressure, it may have had enough pressure in the line to start it that first time (and with it running, it keeps pressure) but not once it was shut off and the pressure drained.
have someone turn the key to on position, and put your ear down near the pump. see if you can hear it prime.
any luck with looking yourself? if they had a problem starting, they probably wouldnt have told you, nor would they have shut it off when they finally started it. Again, if they had done something that screwed up the pump, or fuel pressure, it may have had enough pressure in the line to start it that first time (and with it running, it keeps pressure) but not once it was shut off and the pressure drained.
have someone turn the key to on position, and put your ear down near the pump. see if you can hear it prime.
#10
04-06-2007, 11:02 PM
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#11
04-06-2007, 11:33 PM
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RE: Help! Car Won't Start
Red, when you turn the ignition on without starting the car, do you get the buzz sound from the rear? If so, then your fuel pump is working. Another trick most people try is to lightly hit the fuel tankwith something. Usually its gets things working again for a bit especially if its the fuel pump, but that of course would be temporary.
If you think the fuel pump is working,I would check for something else like no spark.
Leave it for a while and then try starting it again. You may have flouded the engine with too much fuel. Are you sure you have enough gas?
As far as the dealer is concerned, im almost definately sure they are not going to hear it from you since they dont even get close to messing with any fuel hoses or anything connected to the fuel pump. But like JBVolvo mentioned, check if there are any leaks. If they were not there before, then it is a possibilty that it is the tech at the dealership may have accidently hit one of the hoses or something.
Oh and, it is still a possibility that it is not a coincidence and that something did go wrong without it being anyones fault.
Good luck!
Ali
If you think the fuel pump is working,I would check for something else like no spark.
Leave it for a while and then try starting it again. You may have flouded the engine with too much fuel. Are you sure you have enough gas?
As far as the dealer is concerned, im almost definately sure they are not going to hear it from you since they dont even get close to messing with any fuel hoses or anything connected to the fuel pump. But like JBVolvo mentioned, check if there are any leaks. If they were not there before, then it is a possibilty that it is the tech at the dealership may have accidently hit one of the hoses or something.
Oh and, it is still a possibility that it is not a coincidence and that something did go wrong without it being anyones fault.
Good luck!
Ali
#12
04-06-2007, 11:41 PM
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#13
04-07-2007, 12:41 AM
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RE: Help! Car Won't Start
Someone on VolvoSpeed told me it's the fuel pump relay...So I responded w/ this..
UPDATE: I just knocked on the gas tank while my mom tried to start the car. And the car roared to life. However, right after this, I tried to start again, and the car started for half a second and died.
So is this definetely a fuel pump problem? Jeesh, this is eerily coincidental if it is....
^So you're thinking fuel pump relay? How do I actually check it? I've read up on it, but i don't know how to solder so i'm not gonna go that route. I think imma just buy from FCP Groton (had good exp w/ them) and pick one up from them if that's the case.
In the morning, i'm going to tap the tank and see if the car works. IF the car starts, would it be a fuel pump problem? If not, a fuel pump relay correct?
Oh, and here is another possible explanation I've been thinking about....Someone tell me if this is plausible.. Is it possible that as they were working on the gas tank, perhaps they knocked it somehow and stirred the crud and crap on the bottom of the tank and now something is clogged?
In the morning, i'm going to tap the tank and see if the car works. IF the car starts, would it be a fuel pump problem? If not, a fuel pump relay correct?
Oh, and here is another possible explanation I've been thinking about....Someone tell me if this is plausible.. Is it possible that as they were working on the gas tank, perhaps they knocked it somehow and stirred the crud and crap on the bottom of the tank and now something is clogged?
UPDATE: I just knocked on the gas tank while my mom tried to start the car. And the car roared to life. However, right after this, I tried to start again, and the car started for half a second and died.
So is this definetely a fuel pump problem? Jeesh, this is eerily coincidental if it is....
#15
04-07-2007, 02:18 AM
RE: Help! Car Won't Start
Hi Jimmy,
Sorry about the problem, I know no-start condition is one of the most annoying problems.
It is probably the pump, as the relay is located in the fuse box, but I'll list how-to URLs from matthew's in case if the relay also decides to go:
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/cha...?p=32573#32573
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/cha...?p=31037#31037
A site from UK:
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/tech/ser...llOverhaul.pdf
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/volvo_wo...techdocs.shtml
I did some search on Japanese web sites and they all seem to say that electrical/electronic components on European cars seem fragile. At this point I cannot say if it was the dealer's tech that did some damage to the pump, or if it was just the timing. From now on, I recommend that you watch technicians while they work on your car. A conscientious shop would allow you to do this if you explain to them your past experiences, though they may not be held liable for any injury to you while in the shop. I myself do it as much as possible and have stolen some of expertise.
Fuel pump assembly costs quite a bit, I'll list the pics & prices. Before buying one yourself, try arguing with the dealer, and if there is another dealer within drivable distance, tell them that you no longer will have business with them and consider buying a new Volvo from another dealer this year. But note, the fuel pump on 850 does seem to fail over the years & miles.
JPN
http://www.fcpgroton.com/volvo850fuelsystem.htm
Pic-1: Genuine Volvo Full Fuel Pump Assembly-$315
Pic-2: Bosch Fuel Pump Insert-$195
Pic-3: Aftermarket (Hella-Pierburg) Fuel Pump Insert-$125
I am not sure if you can get away by replacing the insert assembly or have to replace the entire thing. Tech would be able to tell you but he may need a bit more time until he can come home
.
[IMG]local://upfiles/6892/08FB2CBE371C42948122F7E3C9D4646C.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/6892/A065557740984BB7B127CCE8035019CB.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/6892/3E22BF39D30C4BFDB73EDED2AD12B59B.jpg[/IMG]
Sorry about the problem, I know no-start condition is one of the most annoying problems.
It is probably the pump, as the relay is located in the fuse box, but I'll list how-to URLs from matthew's in case if the relay also decides to go:
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/cha...?p=32573#32573
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/cha...?p=31037#31037
A site from UK:
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/tech/ser...llOverhaul.pdf
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/volvo_wo...techdocs.shtml
I did some search on Japanese web sites and they all seem to say that electrical/electronic components on European cars seem fragile. At this point I cannot say if it was the dealer's tech that did some damage to the pump, or if it was just the timing. From now on, I recommend that you watch technicians while they work on your car. A conscientious shop would allow you to do this if you explain to them your past experiences, though they may not be held liable for any injury to you while in the shop. I myself do it as much as possible and have stolen some of expertise.
Fuel pump assembly costs quite a bit, I'll list the pics & prices. Before buying one yourself, try arguing with the dealer, and if there is another dealer within drivable distance, tell them that you no longer will have business with them and consider buying a new Volvo from another dealer this year. But note, the fuel pump on 850 does seem to fail over the years & miles.
JPN
http://www.fcpgroton.com/volvo850fuelsystem.htm
Pic-1: Genuine Volvo Full Fuel Pump Assembly-$315
Pic-2: Bosch Fuel Pump Insert-$195
Pic-3: Aftermarket (Hella-Pierburg) Fuel Pump Insert-$125
I am not sure if you can get away by replacing the insert assembly or have to replace the entire thing. Tech would be able to tell you but he may need a bit more time until he can come home
.[IMG]local://upfiles/6892/08FB2CBE371C42948122F7E3C9D4646C.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/6892/A065557740984BB7B127CCE8035019CB.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/6892/3E22BF39D30C4BFDB73EDED2AD12B59B.jpg[/IMG]
#16
04-07-2007, 02:07 PM
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#17
04-08-2007, 12:51 AM
#18
04-08-2007, 01:12 AM
RE: Help! Car Won't Start
Hi Jimmy,
No, you have a choice of choosing only one of the 3 pics I posted. I've never heard of Hella-Pierburg, it sounds like German but I'm not sure. If it turns out the pump is shot, you can try the insert or the entire assembly. If you think you can do it yourself at your own risk, try the manual I posted, as well as a generic manual. Should you decide to do this, I would buy a small bottle of Class-B fire extinguisher just in case. You can probably find one at a Wal-mart or hardware store for less than $20.
Either way, you would have to get to the top of the pump, where you can check for the connection security.Disconnect the electrical connection, clean it and re-connect it to see if it improves.
Let us know what you find.
JPN
No, you have a choice of choosing only one of the 3 pics I posted. I've never heard of Hella-Pierburg, it sounds like German but I'm not sure. If it turns out the pump is shot, you can try the insert or the entire assembly. If you think you can do it yourself at your own risk, try the manual I posted, as well as a generic manual. Should you decide to do this, I would buy a small bottle of Class-B fire extinguisher just in case. You can probably find one at a Wal-mart or hardware store for less than $20.
Either way, you would have to get to the top of the pump, where you can check for the connection security.Disconnect the electrical connection, clean it and re-connect it to see if it improves.
Let us know what you find.
JPN
#19
04-08-2007, 04:02 AM
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RE: Help! Car Won't Start
ORIGINAL: JBVolvo
Did you check the electrical connections on the pump?
I still have a feeling they knocked the connectors semi loose and you knocking on the tank is making connection long enough to start it.
Did you check the electrical connections on the pump?
I still have a feeling they knocked the connectors semi loose and you knocking on the tank is making connection long enough to start it.
I have a question tho...Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't Fuel pumps run continuously as you're driving? So why doesn't my fuel pump fail as I'm driving? Especially if it's the connectors...
And one more thing, is it normal for the pump's failure to be so sudden? I've never had any problems starting the car....
That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion the pump indeed failed because I frequently drive w/ less than 6 gallons of gas. Before I filled up, I was at about 2-3 gallons...
#20
04-08-2007, 04:28 AM
RE: Help! Car Won't Start
Hi Jimmy,
Still up hun? I assume it's around midnight your time, well I guess it's not terribly late then
. It's about 3 in the afternoon in Japan.
>don't Fuel pumps run continuously as you're driving?
Very good point. Yes, the pump is running continuously as long as the engine is running. When the pump fails, the engine stalls in a few seconds because there's no fuel pressure. In some airplanes, there are engine-driven mechanical fuel pumps but I don't know of modern cars that have such design and 850 is definitely not one of them.
>is it normal for the pump's failure to be so sudden?
Another good point. Often, electrical devices fail suddenly. This is more so with electronic devices such as IC, transistor, LSI, etc...
>I have a sneaking suspicion the pump indeed failed because I frequently drive w/ less than 6 gallons of gas.
Another one! Yes, the pump is designed to operatebeing submerged infuel, and if there is less fuel in the tank (low enough to expose the pump into the air), it puts stress on the pump.
I too agree that the pumpmay beshot. To get to the pump on wagons, simply pull up the floor lining and it should expose the upper portion of the fuel pump.
Replacing the pump, at your own risk, is possible and would save you money for labour. However, you must do it in a well-ventilated area (some peoplehave been killed because they inhaled too much fume), relieve the fuel system pressureand should have aClass-B fire extinguisher as I noted earlier. However, if you can find a shop that can install the parts you supply, that's what I would do. It should be between a half hour to 1 hour for the replacement & system check.
If you don't have a Haynes manual (Chilton seems to be of even lesser quality), I would get one. If not, follow the link I provided earlier, the one from the UK. It has good instructions and seems like a factory manual though I am not 100% sure.
6 gallons of fuel is sufficient to keep the pump submerged in fuel, but 2 gallons may be a little too low[8D]. Also, other factors considered, try keeping the fuel level at least at half tank.
As to the pump insert replacement, Tech could've told you how-to, but it'll be a bit more time until he can come home, and I myself have not performed disassembly on 850's fuel pump, so do a bit of search and if you find an instruction, let us know or ask at dealer/specialised shop.
I've refreshed my memory on the fuel pump from your post, it was an excellent post.
Good night,
JPN
Still up hun? I assume it's around midnight your time, well I guess it's not terribly late then
. It's about 3 in the afternoon in Japan. >don't Fuel pumps run continuously as you're driving?
Very good point. Yes, the pump is running continuously as long as the engine is running. When the pump fails, the engine stalls in a few seconds because there's no fuel pressure. In some airplanes, there are engine-driven mechanical fuel pumps but I don't know of modern cars that have such design and 850 is definitely not one of them.
>is it normal for the pump's failure to be so sudden?
Another good point. Often, electrical devices fail suddenly. This is more so with electronic devices such as IC, transistor, LSI, etc...
>I have a sneaking suspicion the pump indeed failed because I frequently drive w/ less than 6 gallons of gas.
Another one
! Yes, the pump is designed to operatebeing submerged infuel, and if there is less fuel in the tank (low enough to expose the pump into the air), it puts stress on the pump. I too agree that the pumpmay beshot. To get to the pump on wagons, simply pull up the floor lining and it should expose the upper portion of the fuel pump.
Replacing the pump, at your own risk, is possible and would save you money for labour. However, you must do it in a well-ventilated area (some peoplehave been killed because they inhaled too much fume), relieve the fuel system pressureand should have aClass-B fire extinguisher as I noted earlier. However, if you can find a shop that can install the parts you supply, that's what I would do. It should be between a half hour to 1 hour for the replacement & system check.
If you don't have a Haynes manual (Chilton seems to be of even lesser quality), I would get one. If not, follow the link I provided earlier, the one from the UK. It has good instructions and seems like a factory manual though I am not 100% sure.
6 gallons of fuel is sufficient to keep the pump submerged in fuel, but 2 gallons may be a little too low[8D]. Also, other factors considered, try keeping the fuel level at least at half tank.
As to the pump insert replacement, Tech could've told you how-to, but it'll be a bit more time until he can come home, and I myself have not performed disassembly on 850's fuel pump, so do a bit of search and if you find an instruction, let us know or ask at dealer/specialised shop.
I've refreshed my memory on the fuel pump from your post, it was an excellent post
. Good night,
JPN