Yes, that's right, sad news. Our Volvo had to get towed. [:@]I've done some searching to look at other problems people had with their 850's dying, but I'd like to post my symptoms anyway to help me get on the right track because there seems to be multiple issues.

So here's the story:

My wife and I were headed to dinner and a movie tonight at a shopping center about 15 miles from our house. Stopped to put gas in the car (was almost empty) and drove out to the shops. Drove all the way at about 70mph, no issues what-so-ever, even stopped at a couple of lights, no issues. We get to the shopping center entrance (light is green) and slow down to about 15mph to go around the corner. There's a tiny little rise and at the apex of the corner, all of our dash lights/warning lights came on and the car was dead. Luckily, we were the only one there at the time so I coasted off to the side in a merge lane. Tried to restart the car, and got nothing. Checked the gauges, wasn't too hot outside, coolant level was fine, oil level fine, no blown fuses. It tried to crank a little bit and there was a tiny little puff of steam from somewhere in the engine bay, but no start. We let it sit for another 15 minutes or so, tried it again and it started up fine. I let it idle for a few minutes and all seemed normal, tried to put it in gear and it died again. After that, it took a few more tries, but got it started, tried to put it in gear, died again.

As I shut the car off, I noticed the low oil light was the last light to go off, so as a precaution, we walked to a close gas station and bought a quart of oil (it was fine, but I added some just in case.)

By that time, our battery was dead so we couldn't try to start it again (we've needed a new battery for a while.)

So help! We had it towed to a repair shop, but I have tomorrow where I can drive down and mess with things. What should I look for?

Oh, and Tech isn't the only one who can reply, I'll take help from anyone.

 

I've been doing more research.... would this happen if the battery was completely shot? It did have quite a lot of corrosion on the positive terminal......

Just thinking out loud... Still researching...

 

Good evening 92Typhoon,

Here's a copy & paste from:

https://volvoforums.com/m_48928/tm.htm

If the alternator is original, I personally would replace it NOW. Even though many alternators on 850's last a very long time, mine failed at 130,000 miles/12 years, and safety factor concerned, 100,000 miles/10 years is about the life for the original alternator. Replace it with a rebuilt/new Bosch (I recommend rebuilt Bosch with lifetime warranty; I got mine from Pep-Boys, about $220). Keep the original alternator (the one you take off) as a backup. If the alternator dies while you're driving, you will lose power assistance to the steering & brakes. Since Volvo's are very heavy, consider how much effort is required to navigate the car without the engine running, especially for females. In some situations, it could be lethal. You can save mere $240 or so, but would you leave yourself or yourloved ones in a situation like this? I wouldn't. And cars often break down at the worst time & locations. If the age of battery is unknown and the tests show poor results, I would replace the battery as well (I personally like Interstate Battery).

---END OF COPY---

As you can see, your alternator could be the culprit, though I cannot guarantee it unless I test it myself. However, when 850 loses sufficient power supply, all dash warnings flicker.

A battery can totally discharge, if the alternator is shot. It does not let you start the car, and even if it gets started, it'll soon die again.

In case if it turns out the alternator, MAKE SURE that the battery is fully charged before installing another alternator. If the battery is not fully charged when the alternator is installed, it can fry the diodes/voltage regulator within the alternator.

I hope others provide you with other alternatives. But so far, your situation reminds me of good old days in Chicago, when I had a very similar situation.

I wish you luck,


JPN

 

Some additions, as most people in the States are probably asleep, zzz...

The oil lamp going out last should be of no concern, as you had sufficient oil in the engine and the oil filter should bypass oil should it get clogged.

It's not the timing belt, as the engine restarted and you could let it idle for a few minutes, right? However, make sure to keep track of timing belt replacement (every 70,000 miles/5 years).

And I assumed it was the alternator. Very often, electrical system failure gives you no prior warning; they suddenly shut down.

Will wait for your findings. I'll be up for the next 9 hours or so, as it is in the middle of the day in Japan and today is my day off. Or, if someone in California is still up, that person could reply as well. I'm sure Tech would reply to you when he wakes up & logs on the forum in a blink second.


JPN

FYI: It is not the battery that supplies electrical power when the engine is running. The alternator supplies power, unless if the electrical load exceeds the alternator's capacity, then the battery acts as an assistant. Hot rainy night in a congested traffic is the worst situation, as many high-power components are operated simultaneously and this exceeds the alternator's capacity to supply power & charge the battery, so the battery will quit eventually. This was not the case on your car, but cleaning the battery post is highly recommended.

Generally speaking, battery is there to let you start the car or to assist the alternator when the power demands are too high. It also absorbs power surge in some situations.

 

Check the Cam sensor plug. The get old and start to fall apart. When they do they will loose connection from time to time.
Do you have fuel and spark?
If you have fuel and spark try uplugging the mass flow and see if it will start.

 

Thanks for the quick responses guys! We are going to replace the battery today as our first test. We should have done that long ago, but for whatever reason we didn't. If the car doesn't start with a new battery, I will pull the alternator and take it and have it tested. Hopefully it'll be that. It does match the symptoms JPN described with it losing power and having all dash warning lights come on.

I think it dying when I put it in gear was a coincidence. It has run just long enough to die again when I decided to put it in gear.

If the new battery and possibly new alternator don't do the trick, I'll try the mass flow sensor next. It did have fuel and spark, it just wouldn't stay running. for more than about a minute.

As always, you guys are awesome! I'll give it a go and let you know what I find out!

Edit: Something I forgot to mention after reading JPN's post. Our car has 138,000 miles.... I'm guessing, since we're only the second owner that the alternator is original... well past the time it should have died, correct?

thanks again!

 

Hello Tjay,

I hope your 850 comes back to life soon.

Make sure to do the tests Tech has suggested (MAF sensor & CPS), before replacing the alternator to avoid random parts replacement that becomes costly. Also, try retrieving possible codes from engine & transmission ECUs if you can.

The average life of a regular battery is usually 3 to 5 years, depending on the care it receives (maintaining of proper electrolyte level-[simply adding distilled water to the specified level], cleaning the outer case & posts, applying petroleum jelly on the posts to prevent corrosion, etc...). I've always had good luck with Interstate Battery, as their products' quality is guaranteed and they have generous warranty policy. I once bought a generic battery from a franchise store for my Accord (almost 11 years ago) and it died within a year. The electrolyte level was too low, even though it was a new battery. The battery was probably sitting on the shelf too long, without being charged. Also, my recent reading indicates that some maintenance-free type batteries (gel type or cap-less type) seem to last 8 years or longer.

>Something I forgot to mention after reading JPN's post. Our car has 138,000 miles.... I'm guessing, since we're only the second owner that the alternator is original... well past the time it should have died, correct?

In my personal opinion, it is the safest thing to do to replace the alternator at every 100,000 miles/10 years, regardless of the condition. And if I could afford to buy a rebuilt/new Bosch alternator without returning the original for core charge, I would keep the original unit in the trunk as a backup, but it's just me as I'm @n@l when it comes to safety; this is probably because I work on airplanes. Other people noted that their original alternators never failed (past 200,000 miles?). But I think it is lucky that their alternators have been surviving for so long, and I don't consider myself that lucky so I replace it at my personal interval.

Anyway, glad that the car died at a safe part of the town/road and no one was hurt. Please do let us know your findings, so we can help other people in the future as well.

Regards,


JPN

 

Well, today, the car won.... or it could have been the 100 degree heat in the lot where it's at... Due to the symptoms, I pulled the alternator today and took it to have it tested.... It tested fine. It's a Volvo alternator, so I can't tell if it's original or not. Then, as I was putting it back in, it just got too hot and I got too tired to finish the job. I think I was down to 4 bolts, and one of the actual alternator bolts I couldn't get to line up and go in... So rather than get hotter and frustrated, I decided to try again another day. (Tomorrow)

Because it's at a repair shop (didn't want to pay for two towing bills - to our house, to a repair shop) I may just have them finish up the reinstall of the alternator and pull the codes, test the CPS and MAF, etc. I'd love to do it myself and get some more experience under my belt, but my wife and I can't afford to have the car down for a week until I can get back to working on it.

Either way, I'll let you guys know what I find out.

 

Tjay,

I'm sorry my inaccurate suggestions have lead you to the wrong path and nearly caused you heat exhaustion. At this point, I am clueless unless I can test the car myself.

I am intrigued as to a part of your description:

>"and there was a tiny little puff of steam from somewhere in the engine bay"

I wonder if an electrical component or wire has fried and caused smoke, unless the smoke didn't have melting plastic kind of odor.

Anyway, I'll wait to hear from you as to what has caused the problem. I wish I could have helped you better in the first place.


JPN

 

Oh, no worries JPN. It was good to find out our alternator is good, it was also good because I was able to see that we desperately needed a new serpentine belt. You're suggestions were very useful.

I'm going to go back tonight and finish reinstalling the alternator. I think I'll have to remove most everything and try again, because some of the bolts just weren't cooperating, but now that I've done it once, it shouldn't be a problem twice.

The bad news is, I think further diagnosing is beyond what I can do. I don't have an OBDII scanner, and the car is sitting at a repair shop. They will work on the car, they are just backed up until late next week. I'm hoping for a cancellation. As always, I'll keep you guys updated.

 

I'm going to go today and try to finish putting in the alternator. Should be cooler too.

My question is, if the car starts, runs, then dies again... assuming it's the MAF or CPS, is it possible to limp it home any way? The auto repair shop can't get to it forever, and if I get it home, I think I can troubleshoot and hopefully fix it myself. No better time than the present to learn right?

 

another update: got the alternator back in, volvo started right up. all seemed okay. decided to try and get it home (repair shop is in
a bad part of town, didn't want it to sit in the open for 10+ days). was running fine, got 3 miles (halfway home) and it died again. we have to take the truck and tow it the rest of the way home tomorrow after work.

i 'm going to need all the help I can get from you guys because my wife and I can't afford the repair fees at the moment. i'll have to do it myself.

anyhow, i'll post the full details tomorrow; symptoms, what the car didi etc. i'm tired of pecking on
an ipaq hehe.

 

Hi Tjay,

I apologise again, and I'd like to help you as much as I can.

Now, I'd like to know more about the condition of the car,in order to know what the possible problem could be. If you would, please provide me answersfor the following questions:

1. Is your 850 turbo or non-turbo?
2. When does the engine mostly die; foot on the gas, or foot off the gas, at idle, at a stoplight, etc...?
3. And does engine sustain idle, if the transmission is not engaged?
4. How old is the battery, and can you test it with a digital multimeter with engine on & off?
5. Have you noticed any other indications/symptoms when the engine dies (Is CEL on?)?
6. Does it die at certain engine temperature?
7. Is transmission fluid at proper level & condition? If you need an instruction on how to check its level, let me know or refer to one of my posts at: https://volvoforums.com/m_48928/tm.htm
8. Is engine still difficult to start after it dies?

IAW Tech's suggestions, see if you can check the CPS & MAF sensor. The MAF sensor seems to have known problem with the wiring, I'll leave a URL for Volvospeed's instructions:
http://volvospeed.com/Repair/maf_secure.php

If you could drive to the nearest AutoZone, that would be the ideal, as they can perform free OBD-II diagnostic, but with the car's behaviour right now, it is not safe. However, it can still be done with home-made device (OBD-II→OBD-I signal conversion tool); I'll attach a pic but you need a few electrical components such as a switch, LED, resistor, etc... I remember there was a better home-made unit than the one in the pic, as the one in the pic does not indicate which pin goes to the transmission ECU.

Fuel pump & pump relay have also been giving people trouble, though in your case it may not apply. However, you may want to check it out just in case. I assume the pump is probably ok, but the relay could have caused the symptom (double check on this with Tech). A new relay is about $60 from FCP Groton, but many people seem to have successfully repaired it by soldering.

The battery should have 12.0V-12.6V with the engine off, and this number should increase to about 13.5-14.1~14.3V with the engine running. If you do not have a digital multimeter, you may want to buy one at this point, as it will be handy to have and you don't need a fancy one, a $20-$30 Craftsman meter would suffice for most home mechanics. Also, it may be worth a few dollars to get a specific gravity tester to test the battery, which can be found at most auto parts supply shops. This is a bit more accurate way of testing a battery, but since battery fluid contains strong acid, eye & hand protections are absolutely required.

Lastly, I'll attach a page from factory manual; I've circled the part for "Engine stall, no code". Again, getting codes from the engine & transmission ECUs would be very helpful.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Best wishes,


JPN

1-Home-made OBD-II→OBD-I scanner.
2-Location of the CPS.
3-A page from factory manual.
4-Location of the fuel pump relay.
5-Location of the throttle switch.
* Pics 2-5 have been deleted, but will be posted again should you require them.

[IMG]local://upfiles/6892/B9C3354FDB4F430FBF1880F9F89BE838.jpg[/IMG]

 

Wow! Thanks JPN!

Now that I actually have a keboard and am not typing on a pda, I'll give you the rundown of last night.

Our car is a 1997 850GLT (low pressure turbo.) We just put a new battery in it Sunday. It's needed one for quite some time and this was a good excuse to do so, so yes, it has a brand new battery.

Anyhow, last night after work, we finished reinstalling the alternator. With everything buttoned back up, we started the car. It started right up and purred like a kitten. Rev'd it a few times, no sputter, no stall, all seemed normal. We put the car in gear and drove around the repair lot a few times. No stall, no sputter. So we decided to try and make it home (like i said, we can't afford the repair bill until next month and don't want the car in a bad part of town for that long). Everything seemed to be going fine, the car ran fine went uphil, stopped at a few stoplights, etc. No problems.

Then, at about mile 2, the car sputtered and died (just after a stoplight.) Tried to restart the car and after 2 tries, it started right up and idled fine. In the next mile it died and restarted once, then it died again and wouldn't restart.

As you're driving, when you slow down, the car sputters and stumbles... trying to give it more gas doesn't affect it and it still dies. If you can get it running and hold the rpm's around 2k, it'll stay running longer, but eventually die. Low speeds are where it dies quickest, but it dies at 35mph as well, so I don't think it's a slow speed issue. It has spark, because the car starts up eventually. If I had to guess right now, I would say a fueling issue. Though, when it died for good last night, as I tried to restart it, I noticed a sulferous smell, akin to an overcharging battery, but the alternator tested fine and it has a brand new battery, so I don't know how it's related.

I will unplug the MAF sensor tonight before we tow it the rest of the way home and see if it will start up. If it does start with the MAF unplugged, can I drive it that way for the remaining 3 miles to home? Or does that tell me automatically that it's bad and I need to get a new one?

I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate your help. We'll get this figured out. [8D]

 

You have described something that happened to my 94 last year. Check the fuel pump relay. i might even suggest replacing it as a precaution. I checked everything else over and over until someone suggested changing out the fuel pump relay, that solved the problem

 

Another good suggestion, and at $34.00 I can afford to do it as a precaution as well.

As always, updates to come...

 

Checking for Spark...

-- Borrow a Timing Light from a friend. When engine dies, attach Timing Light to any spark plug wire and have passenger attempt to start engine while you watch Timing Light. (You don't need to flash light on timing mark. You just need to determine whether you have spark.)

-- Carry a spare worn spark plug. When engine dies, attach spare worn spark plug to any spark plug wire and ground spark plug by lying on engine block, and have passenger attempt to start engine while you examine worn spark plug for spark.

Checking Fuel Pressure...

-- Remove cover of shrader tire valve on fuel rail. Either apply regular tire pressure gauge or press with finger-nail and see whether fuel sprays.

Checking Diagnostic Trouble Codes...
Have Autozone (or similar auto parts store) check ODB-II DTC.

 

+1

While I was reading your post I was also thinking about fuel pump/fuel pump relay too.

 

Thanks for all the help everyone. Sadly, I can't have it scanned, because it's dead on the side of the road currently. We're going to tow it home tonight and I'll start testing everything.

I'm actually trying to find a relay in town so I don't have to order one. You'd think someone would have one in stock. [:@]

Edit update: I've called all the local auto parts stores and no one has one in stock. Is there a way to test the relay? I could go ahead and order one, but it'll still take a day or two to get here.

Thanks!

 

The relay should be similiar to a regular relay. Not 100% sure though.
If someone had a wiring diagram you might be able to temp. Jump the fuel pump and drive it home if it is the relay that is bad.
You might also have one in the relay box that might be similiar to use as a temp only.

If all else fails hot wire the pump and drive it home fast.