I apologize in advance for this lengthy tale, but I am writing it out of great disappointment with Volvo and my 2006 S60R with 57,000 miles.

It started simply enough with a "low brake fluid" message. As I was coming up on my 60,000 mile major service, I took it in early to have the service and told the dealership to check out the fluid thing.

I was knocked over when they told me it was the master cylinder for the clutch and they had to remove the entire transmission to service it. And, because they had it all apart, advised I do a complete clutch kit, not just the cylinder. Cost, about $3,000.

I had the work done and then wrote a thoughtful letter to Volvo North America in Rockleigh, NJ. My request was for some financial assistance with what was a rather catastrophic failure at that young age (not a heck of a lot beyond the warranty of 4 yrs/50K miles).

Volvo called me in about a week and told me, essentially, "tough luck... that's maintenance." I was incredulous. I asked to speak with the Area Manager... NO. I asked who I could escalate to next... NO, his decision is final. Not even a token apology offer of free service or something like that. Nothing. I indicated with that sort of treatment this would likely be my last Volvo.

I plan to write Volvo corporate in Sweden, but wanted to vent here and hopefully get some input. Bottom line, a very poor customer experience. If my car had like 100,000 miles I would have way different expectations. But, come on, 4.5 years old and 57,000 miles?

 

Wow....really????? I would not have expected that from Volvo, one must also question the motives of the dealership telling you to do a complete job....I would have them do just what is needed....then purchase an extended warranty 6 years 100,000 from Warranty Direct and should anything else go wrong your covered for 6 years 100,000...Sorry to hear about your misfortune but I would not allow the dealership to do the complete job!!!! JMO

 

Thanks, patsfn2. The job was labor intensive, so doing the clutch kit was only a few more hundred dollars in parts. Seemed sensible to do the whole thing and in effect have an entirely new clutch. Considering the dealer's labor rate of $120/hour, I briefly considered having someone else do it. However, for what I regard as "major surgery," I felt better having Volvo do it. In all fairness, I do have to tip my hat to the service manager who granted me a 15% discount on the parts and labor. That helped, but still a big tab.

 

$3000 to replace the clutch master and/or slave cylinder is much to high IMO but it is also true that Volvo service prices are high. How many hours did they price you?

 

Hate to say this, but that's about par.
I had a vehicle, different mfg, burned out the transmission at 39k miles. This was after taking it in to the dealer 3 times previously due to an unexplained oil/fluid leak. Died on the 395 in Cali about 45 miles from the nearest dealership.

Long story short: too bad, so sad. Had to replace the transmission for $3000. The whole kit. Company wouldn't lift a finger or take into consideration that the previously reported leak was.... you guessed it.... transmission oil.

Lessons I learned:

1) I will never buy Ford ever again. Ok. Yeah. I said it. I know. It's not a Volvo, but Volvo was owned by Ford (and was sold to a company from China). My point, make sure the company knows what they're losing. In my case.... it's not just me as a customer. it was my mom, dad, sister, brother in law, and oh hey look.... now I'm passing on my wonderful experiences with everyone on here.

What is your company's good name worth to you Volvo?

2) Extended warranty can be worth the money. Cars can and will break. It's a roll of the dice. Inquire as to the warranty specifics. Does it cover ALL costs? What will it NOT cover? Be specific. Make them earn their money. Read the contract. If it's full coverage, the cost could very well be worth it.

3) Try to be prepared for these sorts of things. I know. Tough in this economy.

4) Shop around. Find out the cost for the parts. Find out from other dealerships what they charge for labor. Ask questions. If something doesn't make sense, ask more questions.

Personally, I try to do as much of my own work on my vehicles nowadays for reasons mentioned here and by previous posters. You never know exactly what a mechanic is doing and you really are going on good faith that they are being honest with you.

 

And just out of curiosity.... was it a manual?
Pulled this off the Volvo website:

VIP Comprehensive Plan Exceptions*

1. Mechanical: Adjustments and Cleaning, Battery and Cables, Belts and Hoses, Brakes (Front and Rear Discs and Pads, Hubs and Parking Brake Linings), Exhaust Systems (including Catalytic Converter), Filters, Fluids (except in conjunction with a covered repair), Lights (Bulbs, Sealed Beam and Lenses), Lubricants, Manual Clutch Assembly, Shock Absorbers, Spark Plugs and Wires, Squeaks and Rattles, Tires, Tune-up, Wheel Balance and Alignment, Wiper Blades, Coolant and Wheel Studs

http://www.volvocars.com/us/sales-se...s/default.aspx

Almost everything else listed there are normal wear and tear components.... typical vehicle maintenance.... except that one part.

Why?

(And yes, I do realize clutch plates can have excessive wear due to use.... or more typically abuse. Several other manufacturers cover this under their top warranty option while some do not.)

 

Hate to be the bad guy here but here it is.

A couple things are going on here,
1) You had a bad master cylinder.
2) The shop recommended replacing the clutch kit while the trans was out of the car to save you money on a future clutch job.

Keep in mind, your clutch wasn't bad, just your master cylinder was. There is nothing catastrophic about that. And it shouldn't IMHO be covered out of warranty. Replacing the clutch kit was entirely you decision and you should have saved money in labor by the shop doing the clutch while the transmission was already out of the car. If you just did the master cylinder the cost would of been less and more within reason.

What is the break down of the work order? If they charged you for labor twice to remove the transmission then you would have a valid grievance, but as it stands right now... It's all part of owning and maintaining any car.

Again sorry, but that's just how I see it.

 

Clutch kit = manual gearbox

 

As I've seen, most extended warranties exclude manual clutches since the manufacturer has no way to know whether you're using the car to teach the entire Junior Class at Drag City High School how to use a manual transmission.
Just too easy to abuse. And they can be, and usually are, a real PITA to remove and replace on a front wheel drive car since there is little room to do so. I'd question whether the clutch needed replacing simply because you had a bad master cylinder. But what's done is done. I never trust the service writer since they are salespeople, not mechanics.

 

Let me mention that I have not encountered a manual transmission S60 to examine where the components are located, BUT...

Master cylinders are outside of the bell housing, or the transaxle, up by the pedal box next to the brake master, and usually have a separate reservoir or sometimes share one with the brake master cylinder (this would explain the low brake fluid light) and simply pressurize the SLAVE cylinder )when the clutch pedal is depressed), which is also usually NOT inside the bell housing (but CAN be located inside-maybe this model is one of those exceptions).

The gentleman said that the clutch replacement was a nominal amount more, which tells me they already had the bell housing off, and that does not "jibe" with the problem being the master cylinder, but rather an internal slave cylinder (internal meaning inside the bell housing), unless they replaced both cylinders as a precaution.

In any case, $3000 is an outrageous amount of money to replace a clutch cylinder, regardless of where it is located.

Bob

 

Thanks for the responses... good diversity of input and perspectives.

I will respond, just haven't had the time/focus for past few days.

I want to respond, especially, to some of the more specific comments (e.g., from Mad Matt).

 

I'm looking forward to your response and I'm curious how the work order is broken down. And since BobinYelm mentioned it, are you sure it was the Master and not the slave that went bad?

But I do have to stick with my original statement as far as the work that needed
to be done as well as replacing the clutch kit while the trans was out of the car and how it should be paid for. Even though IMHO $3k is a very steep price for it. And at $120/hour! That is outrageous and reason #1 why I have not had either of my Volvo's serviced at my local dealer since I bought them other then warranty work.

Doing the manual swap in my 854R gave me some respect to how big of a job it can be with everything involved to drop a transmission out of one of these cars. It would of sucked to do this job, then have to turn around and do it all over in 20k miles to replace the clutch.

I wish you would of consulted us before you okay'd the work to be done. We may have been able to find you a better (in price) shop in your area that could of saved you a lot of moneys.

 

OK... part two of my sob story.

First, my overall premise for believing I deserved some "relief" from Volvo is simply that a repair of that magnitude is disproportionate to how far I was out of warranty. With a 4 year / 50,000 warranty, being 4.5 years and 57,000 is not that far off IMHO. If it were something more minor, I would have lived with it and not taken this position.

Additionally, my driving is over 90% highway thus not demanding on a clutch. That's a moot point anyway in that the failure was the master cylinder, not the clutch per se.

Again, to clarify, it was the master cylinder which is accessed by removing the transmission. It's not an unusual design... SAAB is the same. Given the transmission was removed, agreeing to a clutch kit was my decision and seemed wise for $432 in additional parts. I effectively have a whole new clutch now.

So... bottom line, 16.5 hours of labor accounted for $1980; parts amounted to $872 for a total of $2852. I've owned a lot of cars in my life, but this is the first I experienced something like this. Maybe I've just been lucky, but more likely because I typically sell my cars well before 100,000 miles.

 

I may be missing something, but I do have the Volvo VADIS software repair manual, and I have reviewed the procedure for removing/replacing the clutch master cylinder on the M56 manual transmission, and it does NOT mention removing the transmission in the procedure. This is for the 2005 S60 (my software doesn't cover the 2006, but I seriously doubt it is THAT different).

Is it possible that you are mistaken, and it was the clutch SLAVE cylinder you are talking about? I don't mean to insult your intelligence with this question, because I am certain you could not possibly make such a basic and elementary mistake (I mean you have the repair invoice stating "Master" cylinder, after all), but maybe your shop deceived you into paying for a SLAVE cylinder replacement (or replaced both as a preventative measure?), but told you it was the MASTER cylinder?

Also, I checked with a friend who runs an import car repair shop, and he said someone is feeding you bad information about Saabs as well. He said he know of no vehicle where transmission removal is required to access the clutch master cylinder. He said he would get about $360 for a master cylinder replacement, and $1200-1500 for a slave replacement with a new clutch kit (depending if you insisted on OEM or after-market parts). He's located in Washington State, and was a BMW factory trained tech prior to opening his own shop 14 years ago.

The only other explanation I can see is that in 2006, they completely altered the clutch system from the 2005 model (for which I have repair literature) to where the master cylinder cannot be removed without removing the transmission?

I don't know how to post the procedure with the photos, but this is a COPY-AND-PASTE of the text for the procedure straight from Volvo literature:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clutch Master cylinder, replacing

Removal

Removing the air cleaner (ACL) housing
Remove the air cleaner housing ACL assembly with the intake pipe. Pull the air cleaner (ACL) housing out of its mountings.


Removing the clutch pipe
Plug the hose with a hose clip.
Carefully disconnect the clutch pipe from the mountings in the body.
Place paper wipe or cloths under the connection between the cable and the cylinder.
Disconnect the pipe from the cylinder by removing the retaining clip. Then pull the pipe out of the cylinder.


Removing the soundproofing panel and pedal components
Remove the driver's side soundproofing panel. See Bushing, brake pedal, replacing .
Disconnect the connector from the pedal position sensor.
Unhook the sensor from the pedal and cylinder.


Removing the push rod from the master cylinder
Remove:
-the retaining clip for the master cylinder push rod. Unhook the push rod from the pedal
-the Torx screw (TX 40) and the lock nuts holding the cylinder in the body.


Removing the master cylinder from the bulkhead
Lift up the cylinder. Remove the hose from the cylinder.

Installation

Installing the master cylinder
Note! Ensure that the hose does not twist when the cylinder is installed.
Tighten the master cylinder. Tighten to 25 Nm.


Installing components on the cylinder
Install:
-a new lock nut and Torx screw. Tighten to 25 Nm
-the push rod on the clutch pedal. Use the retaining clip.
Note! Ensure that the ball on the cylinder push rod for the pedal position sensor is lowered and is on the correct side of the pedal.
Install the pedal position sensor on the pedal and cylinder. Connect the sensor connector.


Installing the clutch pipe on the cylinder
Use a new O-ring.
Ensure that the retaining clip is correctly located.
Press the pipe into place in the mountings.
Remove the hose clip.
Bleed the clutch
Final check
Check the brake fluid level. Use only Volvo Genuine parts brake fluid (Volvo DOT 4+) when topping up.
Installing the air cleaner (ACL) housing
Install the air cleaner (ACL) housing, including all hoses and electrical terminals.

 

You have to Prt Scr button on your keybord then past it into paint or PS then save the picture then upload it via something like a photobucket. It's a PITA.

Now the S60 R is has an M66 transmission not a M56. Shouldn't change anything though...

 

This is exactly why I stay the heck away from stealers-dealers. Even though you believe this is delicate surgery only Volvo techs are trained in, than you should have already expected the costs of parts/labor to be unfair.

Honestly, next time shop around. Stick with Swedish car specialists (if you so insist) they will always undercut Volvo competition. Personally, I found a independent shop that specializes in Porsche's and BMW's (where I take in my M3) and have agreed to work on my Volvo. They charge me, hold your breath, $80 an hour.

I personally would rather pay $40-50 less to someone who specializes in quality German cars. Because out of personal experience, Volvo is no BMW, and that's a fact!

 

I agree with everything you are saying, but curious what you mean by "Volvo is no BMW?"

In the 90's I was a BIG BMW (and MB) fan, having owned a 2002tii, 3.0CS, two 528e's, 535is, 633i, an E-23 Alpina B9, an e32 735i, and I LOVED them all, but BMWs (alas like Volvos) are not what they used to be. Yes, they go fast, and handle great, but they seem built less well, and the parts are crazy expensive (they used to be dirt cheap if you knew where to buy them). The MBs I owned over the years were not sporty, but were rugged and well engineered.

Nowadays I would own neither as "modern" cars (but would still consider older models) because the design philosophy seems to have changed toward recyclability and too much electronics (beyond what's necessary to pass emissions). Consequently, you can't own a new BMW or MB (out of warranty) w/out having someone in the business, or a high 7-figure bank account to pay the repair bills.

I no longer own the repair garage I had back then, so I own older Volvos (965, 740, and now an '01 S60 T5 the jury is still out on). They are MORE reliable than even the older BMWs were, and while the parts are expensive from the dealer, they are reasonable from places like FCP, or a friend w/ a World Parts account. They are also road-competent (though not "exciting").

I don't want to hijack the thread, and am eager to see if Barnstorm was cheated, but my experience is that at least the local Volvo dealer charges a bit too much for my taste from the receipts I got with my S60 ($1600 for a timing belt change, $1000 for a window regulator and window, $465 for the valve-cover mounted torque-rod motor mount, etc.).

Bob

 

-To Bob-

And I apologize for being off topic.

I have never owned a pre-2000 volvo, so I cannot honestly give you a concrete answer as to why I think bimmers have the edge over volvos. But for the modern-day-car-owner sake, my wife and I own 97' e36 M3, 01' Civic, 01' S60, 03' e46 M3, and an 08' e90 328i. We've had our share of minor inconveniences with the newer M3, but most issues were well in range for me to tackle and paying well under retail/dealer prices was always attainable (due to the level of BMW enthusiast and demand for shops). e90 has had no issues since purchased new, except for a software update and oil level sensor replaced. But our volvo... well... I shouldn't even start with the details. All i'll say is that it has been there for us when need be, it is a nice, fair, reliable car to own, there are plenty of competitive swedish car specialists around, and the aftermarket selection is always an option, but honestly, we've been there for it more than it has for us...

What I really mean about, volvo ain't no bimmer, is that BMW, though they may have gone soft today, they still produces aesthetically attractive and great performing sports cars. Even the non M class (as you know), these cars are fun to drive, you feel well connected with the road, and those stupid driver assistance can be switched off. I suppose that I might be comparing apples to oranges, sports car to executives car. I am biased towards cars for their performance, handling, and name-brand, and not so much reliability. I never said that volvo's were more or less reliable than BMW.

So, where do we go from here for the modern-day German/Swedish car owner?

More importantly, where has Volvo gone today? Sold out again to owners in China? Launched, "naughty s60," and what is naughty?

And what about those Germans? BMW and MB cutting out the middle man (aftermarket)? BMW growing even softer to tailor for the everyday CEO exec?

Modern cars are moving away from our garages and into the hands of specialty dealer equipement. High-end-European OEM is dominating the aftermarket. And we're all becoming slaves towards the modern appeal of things. It's as though we're more interested in technology and compatibility, than anything else nowadays (driver assistance, reverse camera's, reverse sensors, gps, dvd player, on star, ipods, bluetooth, interfaces, usb, flash storage, etc).