Timing belt and Timing problems
#1
09-15-2008, 02:33 PM
Timing belt and Timing problems
I posted awhile back to get help on replacing the flywheel on an 00 s80 T6. Since the motor/trans had to be removed to accomplish this I decided to replace the timing belt. I carefully marked the cams, oil pump and crank, removed the belt and replaced with a new one. I noticed that the exhaust cam moved several teeth when the tension was removed. I now have replaced the timing belt and re-inserted the engine/tranny/newflywheel into the vehicle and now the car will not start. I checked gas, got it, fire, got it, and compression, which is 30 to 50: #1-#3 have 30 lbs, and #4-#6 have 50. I also checked timing marks, and all lined up. I did NOT rotate the crank clockwise 90 degrees then back 90 degrees before changing the belt, so the VVT on the exhaust cam may be off, but how much? I checked the visible timing marks and the cams are dead on, but the crank mark is at about 11:30 (on clock scale), but is pointing exactly at the seeming mark on the engine. NOW, I took a wooden dowl and placed it into the #1 cylinder (closest to the timing belt) and it was NOT on TDC, but after moving the crank 90 degrees clockwise so that the mark is at 3 o'clock the piston is at tdc. What's going on? I am knocking my brains out trying to figure out this. Can anyone help enlighten me?
bcon415 g'boro, nc
bcon415 g'boro, nc
#2
09-15-2008, 04:12 PM
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RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
Your compression is way too low. I think you should have the #1 cylinder at TDC when the cam marks are aligned. Are you sure you're using the correct marks?
Alternatively, maybe your VVT cam is off time.
Here's a series of scans of the Haynes manual on how to time up the VVT. It's for 5-cylinder engines, but might apply to your car too. Click on the links for the bigger images. You need to buy, borrow, or make a special tool to hold the cam while you pretension the VVT hub.
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure001ka9.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure002ps9.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure003sq7.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure004qz9.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure005gm0.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure006tq6.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure007ks6.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure008he4.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure009ra3.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...re0010db7.jpg]
Alternatively, maybe your VVT cam is off time.
Here's a series of scans of the Haynes manual on how to time up the VVT. It's for 5-cylinder engines, but might apply to your car too. Click on the links for the bigger images. You need to buy, borrow, or make a special tool to hold the cam while you pretension the VVT hub.
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure001ka9.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure002ps9.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure003sq7.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure004qz9.jpg]
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure005gm0.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure006tq6.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure007ks6.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure008he4.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ure009ra3.jpg]
http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...re0010db7.jpg]
#3
09-15-2008, 05:05 PM
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RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
wow.. all of this doing a timing belt and cams moving and alignment holes out of line really scares me.. especially with the interference head of a volvo.. my exhaust cam moved a little counter clockwise when i removed the belt but it was super easy to put a wrench on the cam fastener and realign the cam and slide the belt in place with no fuss. fired right up and no jerks, pings or nothing.. hrm.. and vegasjetskier is right.. a healthy engine should be between 120 to 150 psi of compression. id double check your marks and realign the thing.. id hate to hear someones bent valves on one of these...
#4
09-15-2008, 05:33 PM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
As long as all the marks are lined up all should be fine. If the pulley moves and you put it back before installing the belt then all will be fine. The only time you have to worry is when the pulley is removed from the cam.
Did you change the flywheel with the belt still on?
Did you change the flywheel with the belt still on?
#6
09-15-2008, 08:36 PM
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#7
09-15-2008, 09:49 PM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
If he had the marks lined up and replaced the flywheel and never rechecked them before installing the belt the timing would be off causing the problem.
Also thats why it is so important to crank the motor over twice by hand after installing the belt. If something was wrong it would be picked up then.
Also thats why it is so important to crank the motor over twice by hand after installing the belt. If something was wrong it would be picked up then.
#8
09-15-2008, 10:13 PM
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RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
ORIGINAL: tech
If he had the marks lined up and replaced the flywheel and never rechecked them before installing the belt the timing would be off causing the problem.
Also thats why it is so important to crank the motor over twice by hand after installing the belt. If something was wrong it would be picked up then.
If he had the marks lined up and replaced the flywheel and never rechecked them before installing the belt the timing would be off causing the problem.
Also thats why it is so important to crank the motor over twice by hand after installing the belt. If something was wrong it would be picked up then.
But that would only happen if the belt was off and the crankshaft moved,right? As long as the belt was on there, it would keep everything lined up while he changed the flywheel, correct?
#9
09-15-2008, 10:18 PM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
Yes as long as the belt was on all would be fine.
The low compression he has sounds like it might have slightly bent valves.
Thats why I asked if the belt was one when he changed the flywheel. Because if he had all set and the belt was off then changed the flywheel the timing might have been off some and bent the valves. Or another thing is if he didn't use an air gun and turned the flywheel to much trying to get the bolts loose with the belt off that might have bent them.
The low compression he has sounds like it might have slightly bent valves.
Thats why I asked if the belt was one when he changed the flywheel. Because if he had all set and the belt was off then changed the flywheel the timing might have been off some and bent the valves. Or another thing is if he didn't use an air gun and turned the flywheel to much trying to get the bolts loose with the belt off that might have bent them.
#10
09-16-2008, 12:57 AM
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RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
sorry, didnt mean to sound so sarcastic.. but i understood techs question and as obviously wrong to do what he asked i have seen it a number of times. so it is very much plausible for someone to take the belt off, fool around with the flywheel and try and put it back on, and be off some teeth.. that is my one big complaint about the volvo engines.. they all(i dont know of any that arent) are interference heads... so letting the belt brake or come off will WITH ALMOST CERTAINTY damage the valves in the head..
#11
09-16-2008, 06:55 AM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
Tech, Thanks for asking, but yes, I put on the belt as the last thing done. I had reassembled the tranny and had it in the cradle when I changed the belt so when I turned the engine (which I did not have toto change theflywheel once out)
The thing that bothers me is that I put marks, my own marks w/ a magic marker on cogs and engine, took the belt off, immediately put the new belt on and I marked where each cog was, and did not move the engine, and made sure that every cog was correct. Now, the only thing I did not do (when changing the belt) the engine was notset on top dead center. I was unsure of the timing marks on the cam. I did not find the marks on the engine for the camsuntil I was reassembling the plastics. Soooo I am sure that all the cogs were correct. I do not understand the configuration of the VVT. I noticed when I took the old belt off that the exhaust cam move 3 cogs, and I assumed it was because a spring/valve was being depressed and the movement was releasing that tension. I do not know the procedure for setting the vvt. When rotating the crank to put on the harmonic balance I noticed that the marks lined up exactly on the cams to the notches in the plastic. I noticed the crank "seemed" to be on tdc if I was reading the marks correctly. Therefore I put everything back as found, only it has no compression.
My questions are:
1. What is the procedure for setting the timing, espcially the vvt.
2. What exactly is the timing mark on the crank and oil pump. I think I had it correct.
3. I only turned the engine over by hand. Could I bend 6 valves by hand and not notice that I was hitting something? I must be some kind of gorrilla if I can.
4. I could find nothing in Chiltons for a volvo s80. Is this t6 engine unique to the s80? Would any other volvo have this engine in it so that I could look at that procedure?
5. How do you hold the cam still? Must I remove the valve cover? It seems from visual inspection that the valve cover is also the cam channels. It seems like when I remove the valve cover that the cam will be ready to come entirely out, with nothing holding it down. Like I implied, I have not removed the valve cover yet, but that's my next move today.
I've done timing belts before, but not on a volvo, and never have I experienced problems like this.
The thing that bothers me is that I put marks, my own marks w/ a magic marker on cogs and engine, took the belt off, immediately put the new belt on and I marked where each cog was, and did not move the engine, and made sure that every cog was correct. Now, the only thing I did not do (when changing the belt) the engine was notset on top dead center. I was unsure of the timing marks on the cam. I did not find the marks on the engine for the camsuntil I was reassembling the plastics. Soooo I am sure that all the cogs were correct. I do not understand the configuration of the VVT. I noticed when I took the old belt off that the exhaust cam move 3 cogs, and I assumed it was because a spring/valve was being depressed and the movement was releasing that tension. I do not know the procedure for setting the vvt. When rotating the crank to put on the harmonic balance I noticed that the marks lined up exactly on the cams to the notches in the plastic. I noticed the crank "seemed" to be on tdc if I was reading the marks correctly. Therefore I put everything back as found, only it has no compression.
My questions are:
1. What is the procedure for setting the timing, espcially the vvt.
2. What exactly is the timing mark on the crank and oil pump. I think I had it correct.
3. I only turned the engine over by hand. Could I bend 6 valves by hand and not notice that I was hitting something? I must be some kind of gorrilla if I can.
4. I could find nothing in Chiltons for a volvo s80. Is this t6 engine unique to the s80? Would any other volvo have this engine in it so that I could look at that procedure?
5. How do you hold the cam still? Must I remove the valve cover? It seems from visual inspection that the valve cover is also the cam channels. It seems like when I remove the valve cover that the cam will be ready to come entirely out, with nothing holding it down. Like I implied, I have not removed the valve cover yet, but that's my next move today.
I've done timing belts before, but not on a volvo, and never have I experienced problems like this.
#12
09-16-2008, 08:27 AM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
I have one other issue with this car, and that is which cylinder is #1? I know this is a no brainer, but, BUT, when I put the timing mark on the crank onto what I perceived (read assumed into this) to be tdc, the piston was not at tdc, but 90 degrees off. I had to turn the crank to 3:00 to get the piston to topdeadcenter. What's up? btw, the piston I assumed to be #1 is closest to the timing belt.
#13
09-16-2008, 12:48 PM
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RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
ORIGINAL: bigern45
.. that is my one big complaint about the volvo engines.. they all(i dont know of any that arent) are interference heads... so letting the belt brake or come off will WITH ALMOST CERTAINTY damage the valves in the head..
.. that is my one big complaint about the volvo engines.. they all(i dont know of any that arent) are interference heads... so letting the belt brake or come off will WITH ALMOST CERTAINTY damage the valves in the head..
#14
09-16-2008, 01:11 PM
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RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
ORIGINAL: bcon415
Tech, Thanks for asking, but yes, I put on the belt as the last thing done. I had reassembled the tranny and had it in the cradle when I changed the belt so when I turned the engine (which I did not have toto change theflywheel once out)
The thing that bothers me is that I put marks, my own marks w/ a magic marker on cogs and engine, took the belt off, immediately put the new belt on and I marked where each cog was, and did not move the engine, and made sure that every cog was correct. Now, the only thing I did not do (when changing the belt) the engine was notset on top dead center. I was unsure of the timing marks on the cam. I did not find the marks on the engine for the camsuntil I was reassembling the plastics. Soooo I am sure that all the cogs were correct. I do not understand the configuration of the VVT. I noticed when I took the old belt off that the exhaust cam move 3 cogs, and I assumed it was because a spring/valve was being depressed and the movement was releasing that tension. I do not know the procedure for setting the vvt. When rotating the crank to put on the harmonic balance I noticed that the marks lined up exactly on the cams to the notches in the plastic. I noticed the crank "seemed" to be on tdc if I was reading the marks correctly. Therefore I put everything back as found, only it has no compression.
My questions are:
1. What is the procedure for setting the timing, espcially the vvt.
2. What exactly is the timing mark on the crank and oil pump. I think I had it correct.
3. I only turned the engine over by hand. Could I bend 6 valves by hand and not notice that I was hitting something? I must be some kind of gorrilla if I can.
4. I could find nothing in Chiltons for a volvo s80. Is this t6 engine unique to the s80? Would any other volvo have this engine in it so that I could look at that procedure?
5. How do you hold the cam still? Must I remove the valve cover? It seems from visual inspection that the valve cover is also the cam channels. It seems like when I remove the valve cover that the cam will be ready to come entirely out, with nothing holding it down. Like I implied, I have not removed the valve cover yet, but that's my next move today.
I've done timing belts before, but not on a volvo, and never have I experienced problems like this.
Tech, Thanks for asking, but yes, I put on the belt as the last thing done. I had reassembled the tranny and had it in the cradle when I changed the belt so when I turned the engine (which I did not have toto change theflywheel once out)
The thing that bothers me is that I put marks, my own marks w/ a magic marker on cogs and engine, took the belt off, immediately put the new belt on and I marked where each cog was, and did not move the engine, and made sure that every cog was correct. Now, the only thing I did not do (when changing the belt) the engine was notset on top dead center. I was unsure of the timing marks on the cam. I did not find the marks on the engine for the camsuntil I was reassembling the plastics. Soooo I am sure that all the cogs were correct. I do not understand the configuration of the VVT. I noticed when I took the old belt off that the exhaust cam move 3 cogs, and I assumed it was because a spring/valve was being depressed and the movement was releasing that tension. I do not know the procedure for setting the vvt. When rotating the crank to put on the harmonic balance I noticed that the marks lined up exactly on the cams to the notches in the plastic. I noticed the crank "seemed" to be on tdc if I was reading the marks correctly. Therefore I put everything back as found, only it has no compression.
My questions are:
1. What is the procedure for setting the timing, espcially the vvt.
2. What exactly is the timing mark on the crank and oil pump. I think I had it correct.
3. I only turned the engine over by hand. Could I bend 6 valves by hand and not notice that I was hitting something? I must be some kind of gorrilla if I can.
4. I could find nothing in Chiltons for a volvo s80. Is this t6 engine unique to the s80? Would any other volvo have this engine in it so that I could look at that procedure?
5. How do you hold the cam still? Must I remove the valve cover? It seems from visual inspection that the valve cover is also the cam channels. It seems like when I remove the valve cover that the cam will be ready to come entirely out, with nothing holding it down. Like I implied, I have not removed the valve cover yet, but that's my next move today.
I've done timing belts before, but not on a volvo, and never have I experienced problems like this.
I believe you hold the cams with a special tool that fits into slots at the flywheel end of the camshafts. You need to remove a plastic cover to get to them. But, as Tech said, you should not have to mess with that as long as you have not removed or loosened the VVT hubs. Just line up the cam pulleys with the marks on the timing cover.
The #1 cylinder should be at the timing belt end of the engine.
I would try retiming the cams and the crank using the marks on the cam pulleys(with the plastic cover marks) and the crank pulley (with the mark on the engine block) and see if it lines up with TDC on #1 cylinder.
Does your crank pulley look like this?
[IMG]local://upfiles/17447/5E341FF3883D40DBB3DF7DBBDA2F36B3.jpg[/IMG]
Or like this?
[IMG]local://upfiles/17447/DA9947960D6F442CA48918F05FEC362D.jpg[/IMG]
#15
09-16-2008, 06:34 PM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
Yes as along as you did not remove the center VVT screw with the belt off it can move some and not cause a problem at all.
How long was the car down for?
When you look at the top of the Cam Cover (valve cover) does it have torxes screws in the cam cover looking like it would lead to the top of the valve stems?
How long was the car down for?
When you look at the top of the Cam Cover (valve cover) does it have torxes screws in the cam cover looking like it would lead to the top of the valve stems?
#16
09-16-2008, 08:38 PM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
Tech, yes it has torx screws in various places, but now that you mention it they probably are over the valve stems.
And the timing mark looks like the first pics you sent, vegasajetskier.
Car was down for about a week before I started "operating" on it. But it has been 3 or 4 weeks since this first happened.
Now think about it for me, when the crank in on tdc, is #1 at the top? It is supposed to be, but like I said, it is 90 degrees clockwise before the piston is at the top. Have you checked this before? I am betting that volvo does not have it at tdc when crank is marked.
Right now I am looking for the tool that will hold the two cams still, 9995452. Apparently, this is the only way to insure that the cams are lined up when the crank in on the mark and the cams have lost their orientation, as in timing belt breaking. Have either of you replaced a head on one of these types and had to use this tool (cam alignment tool)?
And the timing mark looks like the first pics you sent, vegasajetskier.
Car was down for about a week before I started "operating" on it. But it has been 3 or 4 weeks since this first happened.
Now think about it for me, when the crank in on tdc, is #1 at the top? It is supposed to be, but like I said, it is 90 degrees clockwise before the piston is at the top. Have you checked this before? I am betting that volvo does not have it at tdc when crank is marked.
Right now I am looking for the tool that will hold the two cams still, 9995452. Apparently, this is the only way to insure that the cams are lined up when the crank in on the mark and the cams have lost their orientation, as in timing belt breaking. Have either of you replaced a head on one of these types and had to use this tool (cam alignment tool)?
#17
09-16-2008, 08:55 PM
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RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
This page shows you how to make your own cam locker tool: http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...dure004qz9.jpg
#19
09-17-2008, 12:02 AM
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#20
09-17-2008, 07:41 AM
RE: Timing belt and Timing problems
Bigern45, Thanks for the reply, but "I carefully marked the cams, oil pump and crank, removed the belt and replaced with a new one". The only think wrong with this statement is the oilpump was probably the water pump. I carefully marked everything, and put it back as found.
My synopsis of my mistakes and future steps:
1. I did not set the timing marks on crank & cams
2. I did not continue to rotate the crank 1/4 turn clockwise, then return to timing marks. This seems to be the culprit, as when I did remove the belt the first time the exhaust cam lost its orientation and moved.
3. I need to find the volvo tool 9995452 and secure the cams in their correct orientation, then follow the same procedure for replacing cam seals.
4. The engine is a 2000 Volvo S80 T6 L6-2.8L Turbo VIN 90 B6284T, where the exhaust has the variable valve timing.
My synopsis of my mistakes and future steps:
1. I did not set the timing marks on crank & cams
2. I did not continue to rotate the crank 1/4 turn clockwise, then return to timing marks. This seems to be the culprit, as when I did remove the belt the first time the exhaust cam lost its orientation and moved.
3. I need to find the volvo tool 9995452 and secure the cams in their correct orientation, then follow the same procedure for replacing cam seals.
4. The engine is a 2000 Volvo S80 T6 L6-2.8L Turbo VIN 90 B6284T, where the exhaust has the variable valve timing.
