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V70 2.0F flexifuel manual ethanol values crazy / idle dies
Volvo V70 2.0 Flexifuel 2008 manual.
Engine code B4204S4.
Both lambdas replaced, crankshaft position sensor replaced by the workshop. Did not help. They are clueless.
However, it might be possible as this wrong ethanol value is destroying the lambdas as two has already been replaced?
The problem with idle comes back. Which is a randomly occurring idle / pull death.
I think I have finally managed to locate the fault that the mechanics couldn't find. I also called the authorized Volvo dealer in Finland (Bilia) and they had no idea. They can't find this part from the car structural drawings. The car is 100% original Volvo with Flexifuel. I've given up with the workshops, they're completely hopeless... and will fix it myself.
In the last 5 years, no ethanol has been used in the car, only 98/95 octane.
According to Icarsoft, the ethanol content varies between 5% and 50% and fluctuates constantly in between.
For comparison, a completely identical car using only ethanol was taken at the concentration where it remained completely stable all the time, according to the same reader.
Obviously there is a faulty sensor somewhere that regulates that ethanol content and that is causing the intermittent problems at idle. Ironically, when the ethanol value shows 50% it doesn't seem to have an effect on the car, but the problem occurs randomly. It might be 100% at some point and the idle dies. Surely a car with 98 octane gas in the tank can never have ethanol content of 50%?
Does anyone here know where that sensor is located?
Can't find anything on Google. Which part regulates the ethanol content of the fuel?
I can only find this general fuel consumption sensor part, which is Continental (I believe). But nothing for Volvo. Did they use this general part (because the engine has been used in Mazda and Ford as well? Where is this located in the car?
VOK part DEM#1602739 Features Easy Installation Reference OE/OEM Number 22113962, 1405200005 Brand Volvo Manufacturer Part Number 22113962
Ethanol values are crazy as you can see. Wanders between 5% and 50%.
It says calculated ethanol content, so it might not be a sensor itself, but instead the engine control unit might calculate the value based on data from the mass air flow sensor and/or oxygen sensor.
The car probably doesn't have an ethanol sensor. I found this post on the internet (where they talk about aftermarket tuning):
The second method is to calculate ethanol %. This is the most common method used in OEM flex fuel applications today. Each time you fill up, the software looks at the o2 sensors and calculates what is essentially a 3rd layer of fuel trims. So on top of short and long term fuel trim, you have calculated ethanol %. Using this value it will automatically scale injector pulsewidth, and can toggle "E85" and "E0" modes. Usually there is some kind of "Dead band" where say E0-E20 run similarly as one mode, and E70 to E100 run similarly as another mode, with linear interpolation between. This sensor-less flex fuel software is mostly found on stock ECUs for frumpy engines that nobody bothers to tune in the aftermarket. The OEMs only use it to get government fuel economy credit as cheaply as possible. It sounds like you are hoping for the flexibility of a system that can actually calculate Ethanol %. It's simply not possible unless your stock ECU was designed for it; it needs special code and ethanol models. Nobody in the aftermarket is writing ethanol models when you can just buy a sensor.
The third method is to directly measure ethanol content with an Ethanol sensor. You can do that through special code that the aftermarket adds to a stock ECU (basically hacking the stock ECU), where it takes the ethanol sensor as an input and automatically makes changes to injection. Cobb has a Flex fuel kit for an STi for example (EJ257 engine) that includes hacked ECU software and an additional sensor that is OEM grade. The OEMs used to use ethanol sensors in the early days but used a model to help get rid of them to save money, but good OEM grade sensors are widely available as a result.
So the ECU is probably using other sensors (MAF, O2, something else?) to calculate the value. So the problem could be in one of these sensors. We've both tried replacing the O2 sensors but the problem persists, so I'm thinking MAF sensor next.
I can find this. But no information where the MAF sensor is located. Absolutely no information of any fuel consumption sensor. Looks like you're right and the car doesn't have that.
So this engine is basically a Ford Duratec HE, and it does not have a MAF sensor. Instead, it has a MAP sensor. Here's the best picture I could find of the location of the MAP sensor:
I also found several mentions of faulty thermostats/temperature sensors on this engine. So this is something to suspect as well. Can you see real time engine temperature measurements with your iCarsoft?
And just for the record... when these problems started to appear months ago, I got the codes that referred to Lambda. Both lambdas were replaced (twice) and I have a feeling that this actual problem (which is not Lambda) is destroying the Lambda sensors. So when you replace the Lambda, after a month or two the same issue occurs because the lambdas get destroyed because the car runs rich or with false ethanol values whatever. Exactly the same issue as ntoskrnl.
Yes, seems like exactly the same issue, even the same DTC error codes.
That looks about right for the MAP sensor. I'll have to take a look at mine next week.
If you can look at the engine temperature with your reader, that could rule out thermostat/temp sensor issues. (If the engine runs too cold, or if it thinks it's running at a different temp than it actually is, it will run too rich and could foul the O2 sensor.) I found this about thermostat replacement. It's simple but seems to be in a tricky place... https://www.fordwiki.co.uk/index.php...at_replacement
My friend has the iCarsoft and I will definitely check the values tomorrow.
PS: This has been flawless car for us for over 6 years. This is the only issue that ever occurred. Now we have 263.000 kilometers on the clock and absolutely no plans to ever get rid of the car. Very solid and reliable car. But this has to be fixed. Nice that we both have the same problem at the same time. Cheers.
Yes same here, we've had this car for years without major issues, but in the last 1-2 years it developed this issue, which no one seems to know anything about. Always reassuring to find someone else with the same issue.
keep in mind, icarsoft may not know how to calculate the ethanol % correctly. I wouldn't trust those values until you can confirm them on vida, or find someone who's done a comparison between the two.
The MAP sensor is definitely there where Iroc's pictures. It's attached to the 4th intake manifold with just one screw. It's down there but you can see the wire that comes into it. A bit nasty place but doable. Not impossible. Use very small ratchet wrench.
It has an annoying plug attached.
IMPORTANT: It's better to unscrew the sensor first and only when the sensor has been detached from the engine frame, then safely and easily take off the plastic plug when you have the wire loose. You probably need a small screwdriver to bend the plastic to remove the plug..
The sensor is attached only with a small torx screw.
When it's loose, just pull the sensor out from the hole. That oval part of the sensor is inside a hole and just pull it out with hand.
The MAP sensor was oily and filthy as sh*t.
I changed the Lambda and MAP. The start was very, very difficult but it eventually started.
It was very jerky ride and I thought it wasn't fixed.
Drove back to my house and opened the spark plugs. They were completely black. And I mean BLACK.
I installed new spark plugs and also installed brand new ignition coils. Most likely they were original from 2008.
Now... it ran very nicely but the ethanol content was still stubbornly at 50%.
THEN... I went to the gas station and filled the tank with 98 octane.
When we started driving and watched the iCarSoft live data the ethanol percentage started dropping.
50%... 40%.... 30%... 20%.... 10%.... 3%.
Then it started rising again but then stuck to 15%. There's 95 and 98 octane in the tank.
Drives perfectly. No issues, no jerking, no codes.
What I suspect now (or should I say HOPE) that now the engine is starting to adapt to correct values. There is an adaptation process which takes a few fillings when you change from ethanol to gas. Maybe this is the same.
I suspect the MAP sensor was bad which has made the car run extremely rich. And when the values were sailing it couldn't adjust the ignition correctly (just a guess).
Then that destroyed the plugs and the lambda. I think the coils were okay but 262.000 kilometers and 15 years... didn't hurt to change them.
It was the first time the ethanol content is showing at least somewhat correct numbers now and value is not sailing anymore. Maybe after a few tanks of 98 it will go to normal.
I don't know what else could adjust the ethanol content in this car, if not MAP sensor. The engine temperature is ok about 95-98 Celsius with IcarSoft when fully warmed (I know, sounds high but no overheating issues). There is no MAF sensor, no fuel consumption sensor. And the crankshaft sensor has already been replaced. I'm running out of sensors here.
Fingers crossed that this fixed it.
Here's the MAP sensor photos.
You just push this oval shaped part into the place. It should snap there and then attach the torx screw and then finally attach the plastic plug and wire.
Today's report: The car calibrated the ethanol content to 7.45 which look accurate as there's a mix of 95E and 98 in the tank.
No gas smell anymore.
The MAPT definitely fixed it. Or changing the coils is another possibility (but very unlikely) 99% sure it was the MAPT.
Either way, seems to be fixed.
Edit:
My theory:
The wrong ethanol value probably wasn't causing the problem. It was the car running rich (faulty MAP) which gave wrong air/gas mixture. That destroys the spark plugs and lambdas quickly.
That faulty map gave ECU, lambdas and ignition some kind of wrong signals/values and screwed the ECU ethanol values too.
But following the ethanol content in iCarsoft was a good indicator to see that the car is working properly.
This thread gets stored in search engines which is a good thing if someone runs into the same problem. Very dificult to find any information of this particular 2.0F model. Seems to be quite rare.
Nice, I can imagine the MAPT sensor being dirty like that causing it to not work properly. I'm going to take a look at mine tomorrow.
Originally Posted by V70_man
One thing... does this car have a fuel pressure regulator / sensor? Can't find it anywhere from the parts shop.
Apparently not. This is what VIDA says:
The pump works against an overflow valve integrated into the fuel pump and this means that there is no regulation of pressure but the pump works at maximum pressure against the max. pressure of the fuel system.
Okay so I removed the MAPT sensor and it was quite dirty, similar condition as yours. I also got the new part. But when I was removing the sensor, the torx screw holding it in place broke. The head of the screw broke off because it was so corroded. This is really bad because the broken off screw is impossible to remove. We spent 4 hours trying to remove it with no success. We considered drilling a new hole so we can attach the sensor with a zip tie, but it's in a nasty place where you can't fit a drill. I suppose we have to disassemble the entire intake manifold now, but that's a lot of work.
V70 2.0F flexifuel manual ethanol values crazy / idle dies
