my brain shut off last week after school ended......i cant think straight.....

i can pose a question or 2?

do you want to fight terrorism on our soil or over there?......and do you feel any safer since 9/11?

 

First of all....I was watching your icon of Will Ferral doing his cowbell routine and noticed that it was in time with the song i'm listening to RIGHT NOW (1:58 PM Central Time)....freaky man...

Second: to answer your question, I've got to say that i'm in the gray on this too...loss of life is loss of life to me. It would suck for it to be so close to home but i can't say as i'd prefer one over the other. As a non combatant it's easy for me to say that but then from a humanitary position (or at least an objective one, and concidering we're going to be fighting in this war anyway) is it "fair" to fight this war in a region that's never really been with out it? Isn't it America's turn in the barrel? I mean hell people...we haven't burned Atlanta down to the ground for a good couple centurys! I say bring it on...send the red necks after 'em! Lets rustle up MS13, the Crypts or the Bloods! Lets give the Midle East a break. We'll show 'em what kind of potential terrorism can really have...in good old American excess style!

 

oh yeah...i never felt safe, before or after, 9/11. Personaly, i think it was bound to happen.

 

This quote prettry well sums up what I believe to be true of this "war on terror" etc... My point was merely to get the idea out there that this situation is so contrived it makes my head hurt.

"We spread disproportionate terror and confusion in the public mind, arbitrarily linking the unrelated problems of terrorism and Iraq. The result, and perhaps the motive, is to justify a vast misallocation of shrinking public wealth to the military and to weaken the safeguards that protect American citizens from the heavy hand of government."

Quote from the resignation letter of U.S. Ambassador John Brady Keisling, Feb. 27, 2003.

Forgot this one.

"The consciousness of being at war, and therefore in danger, makes handing-over of all power to a small caste seem the natural, unavoidable condition of survival...It does not matter whether the war is actually happening, and, since no decisive victory is possible, it does not matter whether the war is going well or badly. All that is needed is a state of war should exist. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact."-George Orwell, 1984

You guys have got to be kidding me. You cannot possibly say "bring 'em on" if you are not willing to stand on the front line. There are nothing but poor and ignorant people in the services NOW. I certainly have nothing but respect for them, but they would more than likely not be there if the economic circumstaces under which we all live were better. I.E. NAFTA, outsourcing, and just outright politcal and corporate corruption. I aint no Senetors son, but i am sure as hell not going to sign up to get killed or be exposed to depleted uranium becuase some rich talking head says these guys hate our freedom. It is RETARTED. EVERYONE wants nothing more than to be free and live in peace. I certainly do NOT feel safer since 09-11-2001. In fact I feel a great sense of despair. We are doomed if the majority of the sheeple do not wake the hell up and see that everything you have been told and taught is a lie. Think for youself, question authority.

 

Alright...now you're just being insulting and ignorant. The issue of war for the wrong reasons aside, how can you posibly preach under the presumption that YOUR information is any less tainted than the so called "media's"? An educated person would realize that in order to make an opposing arguement in today's society you need an even more outrageous or at least more conspiratory statement to get through the masses. Esspecially if you have no media "credibility." Environmental activists have been doing it for years! "don't drill in Alaska, you'll kill the Carabou!" You know what? The Caribou will move. What you're preaching about the "sheeple" is no less tainted with idological bull $hit than the rest of the garbage out there. Hence my point that there is no black or white...only gray. In fact, by you quoting people like John Brady Keisling and George Orwell and taking things out of context (well, at least Orwell. I've never read anything about Keisling.) you become one of those "sheeple" you're so addiment in breaking down...conforming to the next hot and controversial topic. Orwell's comment was made regarding an occupied country. Trying to make it apply to what you think is a corrupt government is out of context and insulting. If you want to be on one side of the gray over the other fine, but the fact of the matter is our government isn't the only bad guy out there and if given the choice....i'd still pick our government as the lesser of two evils. You want to change that? Run for president!

That "bring it on" statement was an ironic joke. Had you processed the whole paragraph i'm sure you'd have gotten the whole message. American's invented terrorism (or at least addapted it to warfare first)! The people in the midle east perfected it. It is the new form of warefare and it is unavoidable for it to encroach our borders. No, i didn't enrole in the millitary. It had nothing to do with unwillingness to stand in the front line. It had everything to do with getting married after college. I had the forms filled out and everything. As irrelevant as that point may be I say it because i'd have no problem fighting this war on my terf. At least then it would be for something other than the political confussion you left or right wing crazzies are trying to bend to your ideals.

Authority or not, question the ignorant...and form an original thought.

 

Insulting and ignorant eh? I re-read my post numerous times just now...and I cannot find an example of either. I do not appreciate your tone sir. You are yelling and pointing your finger at me and i do not like it one bit. I am doing my best to remain cordial, you however have crossed the line.
Pardon me for being so bold here, but if you think the Main Stream Media is telling you the truth about ANYTHING, you are sadly mistaken. Look around you, what is said on TV, etc.. does not correctly correspond with the facts in the real world. If I am wrong, I encourage you to help me see the error of my ways.
Of course most things fall into the gray area, as you so proudly repeat. So, are you just going to sit in the middle aimlessly, or do you have any convictions? You seem to have no qualms in cutting me down, but you have really said nothing.
Explain to me why the two quotes I posted are "out of context" as you say. My point was to show the actual words of a federal employee, who resigned after he could take the lies no more. Did you read and understand what he said? That has everything to do with this thread. As for the Orwell quote, I fail to see how that does not directly relate to this also. Did you read 1984? Are your eyes and ears open everyday? If so, you should be a little concerned with the direction our great country is taking. Do not the top 1% of our world have 99% of the power and hence the money? How do you think they got it, much less keep it? By deceit. They create fear, then offer a solution, which takes a little bit more from the populace each and every time. I also fail to see how this makes me a conformist. I seems you are trying to get me to conform to you ideas, forcefully, where as I was simply putting forth ideas, to be reasonably processed.
Did I hurt your feelings by expressing my displeasure with our government? How could you possibly find that as an insult towards you?
Did I say that our government was the only bad guy out there? I think I said all governments, throughout this thread, and also said corporations. Theoretically, we do have the greatest country on the planet. The problem is that the elites took and have kept the power from the people for a very long time, and there is no end in sight. How else can one explain the same family names popping up throughout history? I will leave that for you to investigate yourself, as I am sure already know it anyway, and if not you will research it, right? I do want change, but you telling me to run for president....that is just silly. Try calming down a tad. The next president is already known. It will more than likely be a Democrat. I will be happy to explain why I think that if you like, but not now. While we are on the subject, you do realise that America is not a Democracy, but rather a Constitutional Republic. I'm sure you knew that.
Moving on. So I misunderstood your "joke". That does not mean it was not in poor taste. Did you ever see W's elitist dinner party where he was joking about the WMD's from Iraq. They fall into the same category. Despicable. Not funny in the least. By the way, you were using sarcasm, not irony. Get your literary devices correct the next time you decide point your finger at me.
I am pretty sure America was not the first country to use terrorism as a war waging tactic. But you seem to think so, and you also seem to be proud of it. Very sad. If the Middle Easterners "perfected" terrorism as you say, they did not do it without help from the West. There is nothing "new" about terrorism. I am also saddened to see you write that it is inevitable that it will come to our borders. Terrorism is only new in the sense that the powers that be are overtly using it to make a one world government... call it whatever you want. Slowly but surely we are losing our liberties in exchange for protection. From who? The powers that be, that's who. Why? So they can remain in power. I am positive you know who said this..."Anyone who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither." No? Look it up.
So you are a chickenhawk? You want war, and will proclaim the greatness that is war, BUT, you decided to get married and have children. Just like Cheney. Oh, stop explaining, I am sure you had the very last form filled out and your bags were packed. That's cool, I believe you. So you want them to come over here so you can fight them in your backyard? I mean your "terf". That is silly. I do not want anyone fighting anywhere, but that's just me. I am obviously a puss.
"At least then it would be for something other than the political confussion you left or right wing crazzies are trying to bend to your ideals." Please explain this statement to me. I have no political affiliation myself. I am just a working man who wants to live and let live. Your statement makes no sense.
Hmmm... again with the calling me ignorant. Well my friend, what can I say to that. You have apparently taken up all the original thoughts. You are so articulate and make your points so nicely and not to mention easy to understand. You got me. I guess I better get me some a that good 'ol book learning. Or better yet, you can teach me. You have such a vast and intricate understanding of the world we live in, unlike myself. I get all my news from the TV. See, THAT is tasteful sarcasm.
I would not have normally been so direct with my comments, but your tone was unappreciated, and unnecessary.
Last but not least. Try using spell check. Us uneducated folks will have an easier time understanding and believing you if you can spell correctly.
peace and love, jmc

 

I'd like to apologize for the tone of my previous post. I simply don't like being called a sheep. Seeing as your post was in reply to mine that's what i meant by insulting. My ignorance comment, however out of line, was said because you seem to put a lot of faith in alternative media sources. You're right in that there was no way that could have been appreciated and that i should have taken a higher path instead of tearing you down for your views. Again, sorry.

I would like to clear a few things up though. I don't think the main stream media is telling the truth...in fact i don't think any media is telling the truth. I believe the only way a person can truly obtain any truth on this issue is to go over to the Middle East and see for themselves. Since I'm not likely to do that i choose not to hold any opinions. I feel an ignorant man makes a determination with out all the facts and since i alone cannot get all the facts I remain in a state of gray. That was the point of my last post. And to that point, i appreciate what you're saying about choosing to do nothing. In my case, i feel as long as i'm in the gray after much personal debate, doing nothing is warranted. If I were in the gray because i hadn't thought about it then there'd be an ignorance issue i'd expect someone to call me out on.

As for your quotes being out of context like i said before, i've not read anything about Keisling so i can't justify argueing your point based on his quotes. I have read a bit about Orwell and in my opinion the quote you used was pointed more towards the hold over a populace by an invading nation's government. If my misunderstanding was that you were, in fact, referring to the citizens of Iraq then i apologize. However, reading your post it seems your quote was aimed more toward the conditions by which the American people live. In that case I disagree. I think the American people know exactly what’s wrong with their government…the majority just doesn’t care. This is no more acceptable than what you were trying to say…just a different point of view.

Bad taste aside and as sarcastic as it may have been, the irony of my joke was in the very fact that the West influenced terrorism in the Middle East. My literary devices were fine. I apologize for offending you with that joke but let’s keep the political debate political. I never cut you down for misspelled words or bad grammar. That's petty. And, call it cold or fatalistic but i think it is inevitable for war to encroach our borders. There's nothing we as a nation can do to truly prevent that. I don't welcome the concept of war; i simply acknowledge its existence and the reality that i may someday have to fight in one. You are right, it is a tragic concept and should not be made light of so for that i also apologize. I appreciate your not wanting to fight a war. In my opinion it’s an admirable quality in a person. By no means did i ever mean to imply you were a puss. I'm sorry for that too.

I'm pretty sure i deserved that chiding in your last post so i'm trying not to be offensive here. I just get a little testy when people call me names. In the future i'll try to clarify a few things before i go flying off the handle. Your post didn't deserve the retort i gave it and in closing i'd like to sincerely apologize for raising my temper and as a result raising yours. I’d also like to apologize to the people who may have been reading this thread…unless you enjoyed the heated debate in which case, glad to be of service.

 

Apology accepted.
I would like to offer an apology of my own, for being so gruff. It seems we are pretty close to being on the same page, but it certainly did not appear to be the case at first.
I did not intend to call you, personally, a sheep. However, it is hard to see it otherwise, from the way it was written. I was making a comment on our fellow citizens, who are not engaging in any debate at all, or posing any questions. I'm sorry.
No need to go point by point here. Like I said, I believe we actually are a little closer to agreement than previously thought. Although, the Orwell quote is exactly the situation we are currently in. I fail to see how it cannot be seen as a directly related idea.
I will leave it at that. It was kind of cool eh? Debate is necessary if we are to educate and encourage people to start thinking again. Otherwise, our collective apathy will lead us to destruction.
jmc

 

Indeed...i do love a good debate!

I guess it depends on who you're talking about. Are you referring to the US or Iraq? Maybe i'm misinterpreting here, but Orwell’s quote was talking about the economic strain and hardships brought on a population in times of war and that, in fact, for war to exist is irrelevant...so long as the idea of war exists. To that end, handing over power to the elite seems inevitable and necessary to maintain ones holdings and survival. I think that statement could apply to the US but more certainly it applies to Iraq. For example, the majority of Iraqi citizens have given the US power over their country in order to survive as a nation.

This theory fits perfectly with the Great Depression. However, i think that in today's society, trying to apply those conclusions to the United States' people is too simplistic. I've not studied the economic success and poverty levels of the US and how they relate to times of war. I'm sure there's a direct correlation. However, If your using Orwell's quote was to say the US hands power over to the government to survive, i'm saying we do it because we don't care enough to do otherwise. After all, we're a capitalist nation. We don't care how the country is doing financially so long as we as individuals are rich. When it comes right down to it every single person in this nation has, however small, a desire to be as rich as the corporations running this country. It's the American dream and it's made us insensitive to the rest of the world.

Cripe...now i'm getting preachy. I'll end with that...

 

......

 

lmao....

 

I was referring to the US, and ignorance or apathy of the common man. There simply needs to be an enemy. Whether or not there is actually fighting going on is what is irrelevant. The populace has too much BS they are worried about to stay involved and focused on the treachery of the elite. The power is never so much handed over as it is simply stolen. Iraq did not "Give" power over to the US. We steamrolled over a sovereign nation, sent a functioning society into disarray, and now there is chaos. There was never any choice for the common Iraqi to make. You either support the "insurgents" and we will kill you and your family, OR, you can support the US, and we will still kill you and your family. Terrible. I digress, I cannot see how the quote in question could be correctly related to Iraq at all.
The "Great Depression" was a stage managed economic event perpetrated by none other than the International Banking Cartels that control the Central Banks. All major historical events were/are planned and managed by the elite, to squeeze or thin out the the populace a little more every time.
There is most certainly a correlation between times of war and the economy. The War Machine is what gets all the money in times of war. Well, who runs and controls the War Machine? The elite and their friends. So we as a population are told, "We are at war, and we need to allocate a bazillion dollars to the war effort." How many 87 billion dollar spending bills have recently been bulldozed through the impotent Congress? Too many.
I agree that too many people do not care enough to be actively trying to change the status quo, BUT, again, the notion that we "gave" the elite power so we can survive, I find silly. They stole the power, and crush anyone who gets in their way. There is a quote from Benjamin Franklin that is relevant here. As he walked out of the Continental Congress after the Declaration of Indepence was complete, he was asked "What did you give us?", his reply was, "A Republic, if you can keep it." Yes, we are a Capitalist nation, that to me only means greed and corporate takeover. Capitalism, when it becomes perfected is more correctly defined as Communism. Then there is this thought from Joseph Stalin, who stated that Communism should more correctly be called Corporatism. That is or current situation. The Corporations have nearly all of the power. The American dream is an idiotic ideal that we have all been programmed to think is our right as individuals. A cult of personality. Excess is a way of living that is leading this nation towards destruction. There needs to be some kind of care given to others for a society to flourish, and not needlessly do harm to anyone. We have all been deceived. The problem is what effective means to enact meaningful change are at our disposal? As of yet, I see the answer as, not much
Yikes! Talk about preachy....sorry, but I need an outlet. I also need some more sleep. yawn...
I needed to add some paragraph breaks, it was hard to read.

 

Well....to each his own interpretation. Agree to disagree then, lol.

 

And...no offense but Sweden doen't stand a chance....

 

Evidently that is what we will have to do.

 

Is Mr Zarqawi dead?

I didn't even know he was ill.

 

This whole argument is old and stale.... personally, I think the only way to end the conflict for good is too blow the whole middle east off the planet along with it's inhabitants.... every singl;e one of them, and detain every bloody person who even slightly resembles an Arab, Palestinian, Iraqui etc and have them rot in prison. problem solved! Except that we are not able to do that no matter how hard we try (ok...maybe we can, but let's not go there for the sake of being civil)...

My point, fisticuffs has been the answer to evrything in the middle east since biblical times... mostly due to the ever present religious fundamentalism that abounds unhindered in that part of the world, and the diverse range of beliefs and values upheld by different parties in such a relatively small area. But it is not just in the middle east and its not just centered around Islam... nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

In any case... religion is the most powerful force known to man, even if it is some bull%^*# "fundamentalist" warmongering interpretation of it... and the US and the rest of the world should have realised long ago that no matter how hamfisted they are, there is nothing to be gained from meddling in these dare I say primitive nations' affairs aside from becoming a target for every unpredictable leader in the east. Things would be much simpler for the whole world if the US government had it's overstuffed ego punctured long ago.

The fact remains tho... they made the western worlds' bed, so now we all must sleep in it, regardless of the nails poking through the matress...so what really is to be gained from such long-winded debates?

Remebr people, Zarqawi is only one of a squillion extremist a$$hat's out there... there will always be another overstuffed d*%#head to replace him, then to hreplace the replacement and so on... after all... every day at least one child is born into fundimentalism, and have it preached and rubbed in until they too are old enuff to proudly blow themself up in a mosque like there father... and who can blame them?... they are often told from infancy that jihad is honorable... and who doesnt want to be honourable?

 

lol