I posted this for the sole purpose of helping anyone that may be having battery issues. I started thinking about this and to be able to have your phone locate your car in a parking lot, etc. the car has to be putting out a beacon. I don't use such a service but it makes sense that it can drive a battery down on a car that isn't driven each day or driven on short trips. Maybe?

Toward the end of December 2019 I started seeing a low battery light when I first started the car in the morning. Took it to the dealer and they said it needs a radio software update to fix it. I forgot what they wanted to charge me but since it was a CPO car and I had only been the owner for car for 9 months - my question was why wasn't it addressed before selling the car as a CPO. How do we really know if software has been updated? It isn't like we can look into the windows update history or a Linux update log....or can we?

I'm starting to believe that CPO is just a way to sell cars at a bit of an inflated price. The Outback we purchased was also a CPO and because it had to go back to the dealer so often we nicknamed it boomerang. Buying a car that has more miles would be a car that most likely had all the problems already worked out and you aren't purchasing the car at a premium. Anyhow ----

Last week my car started to show the low battery light at first start. No other time in the day does it illuminate. Last night I did an experiment, I turned off the radio completely when I parked the car. Went out this morning and no low battery warning light. I called the service manager and he said that the radio update is a once and done fix. So off I go to search the internet.

Turns out there is / was a class action suit filed JENNER v. VOLVO CARS OF NORTH AMERICA, LLC . The suit addresses the fact that Volvo knew of the defect in the radio and did nothing to fix it and worse, charged customers for the update.

Then I find this " I found that turning off the audio system (with SIRIUS) when I parked the actually stopped the drain. On picking up my car from a certified, 3rd party Volvo shop today (San Francisco), the owner told me when they tried updating the SW on the audio system, the display kept freezing. Four times he tried. He called Volvo US Support, they said they couldn't help. He called a Volvo Canadian Support, they told him it was a known issue with the display's circuitry, and those panels could never be upgraded. He did not inquire about the scope of impacted models or lines" https://forums.swedespeed.com/printt...5&pp=35&page=3

There is also a part# to apply a fix to the problem --- I think maybe this one -
https://parts.sandbergvolvocars.com/...9/8688083.html

Here is a snapshot of the complaint.

"August 21, 2015 — A Volvo satellite radio lawsuit alleges the remote digital audio receiver can drain the car battery even with the car shut down. The proposed class-action lawsuit was filed by Massachusetts Volvo owner Theresa Jenner on behalf of owners of any Volvo vehicle equipped with a remote digital audio receiver.Jenner claims Volvo has continued to install the allegedly defective satellite radios since at least 2008, and although a software update can fix the problem, the automaker refuses to cover the cost of the upgrade. The lawsuit alleges the battery drains because the satellite is always searching for a signal, regardless if the car is running or not.

The plaintiff claims she has replaced the battery numerous times and each time the automaker has said the satellite radio was the cause of the dead battery. Considering she was tired of replacing the battery, Jenner requested Volvo shut down the remote digital audio receiver.

However, the plaintiff claims she was told the satellite system is integrated with other electrical systems and the problem can only be remedied by paying hundreds of dollars to do a software upgrade.

The Volvo lawsuit alleges Volvo concealed the alleged defect which caused owners to pay for vehicles that aren't worth what they should be worth. The plaintiff accuses the automaker of violations of the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act.

The Volvo satellite radio lawsuit was filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey - Jenner v. Volvo"

I'm beginning to form an opinion about all the computer wizardry in these cars and proprietary systems. I believe that we do need laws that will stop the actions of proprietary software such as VIDA. Software in these cars should be open, maybe not as open as Linux or Open Office but at least make it available to independent shops at a reasonable price. I feel that we as car owners are starting to be held hostage by the dealers and IMHO that is wrong. These things should never reach Class Action status and never would if car makers didn't push their customers against the wall.


Internet search - low RDAR class action lawsuits against volvo -
"This lawsuit alleges that Volvo has a software flaw in its satellite radio receiver such that the device continues to search for a satellite signal even when the car is not running. This drains the car’s battery when the car is not running, which in turn prevents the car owner from starting their car.

All cars are equipped to receive a satellite signal. This is used obviously for satellite radio and such services as OnStar.

Volvo installs hardware in all its vehicles to receive a satellite signal. This hardware is termed “rdar”. The complaint alleges that there is a bug in the rdar’s software such that rdar continues to search for a signal even when the ignition is off – thereby draining the battery. The lawsuit further alleges that Volvo knows all about this defect, which is easily fixed with a “software upgrade” to the rdar. Volvo has not disclosed this defect to its customers, however.

Finally, the complaint also alleges that Volvo is effectively holding its customers hostage by refusing to install the “software upgrade” without a charge of hundreds of dollars to repair a defective device that is unnecessary for the car's safe operation and is, in many cases, simply unwanted.

This lawsuit alleges that Volvo’s conduct violates state consumer protection laws."

 

I suspect you may be out of luck. Similar problems have occurred with BMW and Acura that I know of. No one has collected.
My wife had an MDX that went into the dealer for 6 repairs in 120,000 miles, 5 of them related to a dead battery. Bluetooth kept searching for a phone until it killed the battery, the fix? Throw away the bluetooth module (and your voice control with it) as Acura stopped making the modules eventually. but they did charge you $400 to re[place them while they still made them. Their lawyers just kept extending it.
BMW did come up with a PITA workaround that effectively negated legal action.

Have you considered one of those $100 Chinese radios? They work nicely, have Apple Carplay,camera input satillite adaptable with the tuner. And they don't kill the battery.

 

I didn't know those radios were available and worked on my car? The problem in other cars has been finding a harness that plugs it all together. There is just too many electronic widgets in modern cars that don't seem to work as expected and cause problems. Drove a new X90 the other day and it had that heads up display. Cool stuff, felt like a fighter pilot but soon realized it is a maintenance nightmare in waiting.

 

There are several software "bundles" out there that contain multiple updates in them for a fraction of the price.

I recently (Tuesday night) spent 225$ in software for the car and updated the whole thing.

1, Had a new key programed, 35$
2, Did the TCAM update, this includes all modules on the canbus, 75$. It did 12 modules updated, individually those are 30$ each.
3, Did the MOST update, this is the fiber optic network including radio, nav, etc. 75$. It did 4 modules, again, normally 30$ each.
4, SAS update, this was the only stand-alone one I did, steering angle sensor. 30$

If you don't know someone with a VIDA subscription you can get a 3 day one for 75$

I guess the moral is, don't just go for the radio update to fix your issue, look at the bundles and save $$

Anothoer option is to have your dealer do one of your major services. Volvo offers "free" software during one of those, at least they used to. You'll still pay for the tech time.

 

SO if I get the three day subscription, what else do I need to apply it? Do I need to have the VIDA equipment to do the updates?

With all this computer update stuff, we are at the hands of those that say .... yes we did an update and owners have no way to know if it was or wasn't done.

This is all it says on the invoice

#1 Elec-Electrical System
#17654@12791
TJ31136 Customer States The Volvo On Call Subscription Expired Message is DIsplayed
Caused by
Faulty Software Found
Corrected by (JG) (10)
Installed 31438137-7 TEM VOC Upgrade
Preformed Software Update to Correct

#2 Climate Ventilation System Concern
Customer States that Heat/AC Fan is inoperative
Caused by
Test System and found Fault Codes, Fault Codes Traced and Found Communication Issue With The
Climate Control
Unrealized 31443425-9 : Control Unit 31 1 @ $953.59
After Software Update To The IHU The
Comunication Isue Did Not Exist and The System Functions To Specs

#3 TJ33202 customer states the center screen reboots at times
Corrected by (DP) (10)
Installed 31268488-9 :ICM/IHU UPGRADE

#4 Electrical System
Customer States the battery light is on at times
Caused by
Fault Traced and Found at 12.06
GOOD BATTERY

#5 General : General
Customer States when using Sirius Radio, the Channels have to be updated
Software Updated for IHU No Further Issue Found at This Time

So what the he!! did they do? I have no idea, did they do anything, something, everything? Well they did fix the Heat/Ac Fan that is known because it works but the other updates....who knows?

 

New cars are so complex and heavily dependent on software to operate properly. Before purchasing my 2020 V90 Inscription I checked out other luxury brands (e.g., Benz, BMW, Audi, etc) and visited their respective owners forums for owner insight. Electrical issues were often found at these forums.

My understanding is that most vehicle manufacturers provide specifications and guidelines to their parts suppliers, who then, in-turn, develop parts for use in the vehicle's manufacturer. If all goes well, the integration of various parts from various parts suppliers will work well together. When this doesn't happen, often it is the consumer who pays the bill (often unknowingly) for the remedy (if one can be found). From my knowledge, I believe Tesla (for the most part) uses a different approach whereby they develop the software in-house, and I believe also develop much of the computer systems that work with their software. Lucid Motors is utilizing this same approach for their upcoming car line.

Taking a step back for a minute, let's think about the complexity of a modern car, which is now adorned with all types of safety features, proactive driver aids and "luxury" functions. For some cars, merely changing a direction signal light bulb requires one to also instruct the car's computer that this has occurred, as an example. Also, for some cars, the oil dipstick has been replaced by a computer indicator light and requires the owner to take a deep dive into the car's info. system to determine the car's actual oil level. I could go on.

To me, I think the choice is simple. If one wishes to own and drive a more complicated/high-tech luxury car, there's a good chance that one may be confronted by "technical/computer" issues of some sort. I guess this may be a big reason why the majority of "luxury" vehicles are leased, rather than purchased. For some who would rather forgo luxury for reliability, perhaps a vehicle with a lower level of high-tech features might be more appropriate to own.

IMO many "luxury" car brands, year-over-year, rush to introduce increasingly complex and interdependent features, often before thoroughly testing how well they work together. These brands are lauded for their new features and the public flocks to acquire them. Conversely, Lexus takes a slower approach to introducing new technology and is sometimes criticized for not being "cutting-edge" (although even Lexus can have electrical/software issues). My recent purchase (not lease) of my 2020 V90 was with the knowledge that it's incredibly complicated and may be prone to issues. At least for me, a mitigating factor regarding potential hardware/software issues is the knowledge that my current model has been in production since 2016. Hopefully, Volvo has had sufficient time to iron-out the initial model problems, and hasn't created many new ones along the way.

​​​​​​Good luck to you and your effort to address your car's battery issue.

 

I agree with complexity / luxury but where the complexity idea falls short is that even the non-luxury cars have the complexity. It comes down to choices in the computer parts / modules / wiring, etc. Look up soy-based wiring and rodents you'll find that car owners are eating the price because manufactures went with a wiring that mice love to chew.

I'm working on one of my laptop motherboards right now, I suspect a bad mosfet. While I have the board out I decided to install a new CMOS battery. Normally it is a pop-out then pop-in situation. Nope, not on this Toshiba board. They have the CMOS battery soldered to the board. Now I can do it, I have experience but many other people would need to take it someplace and pay at least $100 for a tech to remove the board and solder on a $5 battery. What were they thinking?

I wouldn't consider the Subaru Outback a "luxury" vehicle but that thing had monumental head unit issues. For me it was a CPO car and the warranty paid but to many others it was a $1500 or more cost to get a working radio.

Part sourcing is where the issue lies and I will guess that the MTBF on cheaper parts is rather short.

 

Hi. I agree with you that even "non-luxury" cars have complex technology that is subject to failure. I also agree that some of the design/construction decisions the manufacturers make don't seem to make sense, and contribute to the high cost of repairs. My point about "luxury" versus "non-luxury" cars was that the "luxury" cars seem to be on the bleeding-edge when it comes to introducing new and more complex technology, with the customer left to pay for their experiments. I guess this is why the majority of "luxury" cars are leased and only kept while still under factory warranty.

 

True about the on the bleeding-edge of some cars. Ha! Everything ages and I just got back from my dentist. I can no longer crow about never having cavities and it has been decades since having one. As the dentist says, your toes are getting close to 70 years old and that seems to be a point of change --- enamel weakens. So he says I have 4 cavities. They asked at the front desk do you want a price to do those 4 and I said to her sure but in my mind I have an idea. Ha! It has been a looooong time since having a cavity and I was off by about 300%. With a mask on your eyes show a lot and I am sure she saw my eyes go blank.

I need to find some more stocks to buy and increase that old dividend income to pay for coming age of increased teeth care.

I just put my two cares on the charger yesterday and gave them their winter charge. The Honda battery is about 30% older but did't need as much of a charge as the Volvo.

In our area we live in a congested suburb, my average driving speed is low and there are a lot of stop lights. So we have a lot of ideling and slow driving. I don't think the alternator gives a full charge and batteries will fail quicker with a lower charged battery. So several times a year I give our batteries a charge with my charger and using the low range somewhat trickle charge.

"Sulfation occurs when a lead acid battery is deprived of a full charge. This is common with starter batteries in cars driven in the city with load-hungry accessories. A motor in idle or at low speed cannot charge the battery sufficiently."

"This also reflects in the auto industry, especially in starter batteries. The short lifespan is mostly caused by the start-stop function and energy-robbing auxiliary loads of modern cars. ADAC road assistance in Germany says that 42 percent of all vehicle breakdowns are battery related. According to the ADAC 2013 report, problems with starter battery have risen four times between 1996 and 2010. The report states that each third breakdown involves a discharged or defective battery and that few packs reach the age of five years. (ADAC stands for Allgemeiner Deutscher Automobil-Club, a German automobile club founded in 1903.)"

Japan says that battery breakdown is the largest single complaint by new car owners. Starter batteries in gridlocked traffic do not always receive sufficient charge and fail because of sulfation at no fault to the manufacturer."

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...no_longer_work

 

LOL re: your battery comments. Years ago, I purchased a factory-ordered 1990 Buick Le Sabre. I kept it for 18 years (180K miles) and only replaced the battery ONCE. Other than normal maintenance (e.g., brakes, plugs, belts), the only part I ever needed to replace was the radiator, due to road debris (not due to faulty construction). This car had a V6 engine and 4-speed trans with overdrive. Fully loaded, with 4 people and luggage, with 91+ octane gas, long-distance trips normally averaged 33-34 mph (with the air conditioner on)! When I gave the car away (to a needy person), it still had the original stainless steel muffler. New cars are certainly safer, have better suspensions and are more luxurious. However, with the endless introduction of new technology, IMO, they are less reliable.

PS: Wish I had your teeth!

 

True.

I still wonder what is going to happen to electric vehicle batteries? Those are not small little AA batteries to recycle. Buying a Tesla is on my list and I am not at all anti-electric vehicle. I would like to try that zero torque from the start line, a golf cart on steroids.

 

IMO, I like Tesla's technology, but I am worried about the potentially high cost of ownership for mechanical and/or collision repairs. My understanding is that Tesla controls all of this, from directing customers to "certified" repair shops and being the sole-source of replacement parts. While all "luxury" cars come with a higher-than-normal cost for maintenance and/or repairs, my guess is that (due to Tesla basically controlling everything), Tesla's post-purchase repair costs might be above the norm. I never priced insurance for this car brand, but my guess is that it may be high to reflect the higher cost for collision repairs. This is not something that I'd like to get into right now. Possibly, as more car brands enter the electric market, and there's greater mass production, the purchase and down-the-road repair costs may become more reasonable.

 

BMW has an electric car, its a tiny little thing. But it comes with a gas generator that when your electric is gone, it will kick in an give you enough energy to get 50 miles. Now that won't help much if you are going across a desert, through the mountains, etc. But it is a novel idea to get you home if you aren't too far from home.

I'm not a BMW fan, I friends that own a few and when I hear about the maintenance.....no thanks.

 

From what I know about the i3 electric car, the small engine doesn't actually propel the car. It's function is to charge the battery, which propels the car via the electric motor. Agree about BMW mtce, but it's probably similar for all of the luxury brands, with the exception of Lexus. The big issue I have with BMW's expanding use of plastic, particularly in their engine bay. Between their use of plastic parts, cheaper hoses and snap-on hose clamps, and the high heat from the engine, turbo, etc, it's no surprise that BMW owners have so many problems with plastic part failure.

 

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. It does as you say "doesn't actually propel the car." because no way would that small generator move the car above a turtles speed. Thinking about this, the generator would probably kick in before the regular battery was down to zero. If not, you would have to sit and wait for it to charge the main battery.

No doubt that cheaper parts and plastic bits are a pain. Taking the battery cover off the V60 on of the latches on the cover broke. No biggie, it was just the top part that you bend to release the latch. SO it still latches but now you have to use a finger nail or tool to remove that one latch. There was water laying at the bottom of the battery case. My S60 had a battery in the trunk, with the battery case and top. One day my wife called with a dead battery and an employee at work offered her a jump. She was thirty miles from home, the problem was they couldn't have access to the battery without tools and CPA's aren't known for turning wrenches. The next day I made that battery 100% accessible.

On the V60 I also saw what looks like a small computer chip attached to the negative cable clamp.

 

What I find very frustrating is manufacturers always trying to reinvent the wheel. Some examples:

* No longer have oil sticks in the engine bay for the engine or the trans. Now, typically the engine oil level can only be determined via the car's computer. For the trans, at least on my wife's Lexus, the car must be run until a specific temperature is reached, then the car must be put on a lift and a plug on the trans must be opened ... the oil should be to the level of the plug (I think the dealer charges at least one hour of labor ... $125 ... just to check the trans oil level). Before anyone says that the new transmissions don't need an oil change, and therefore don't need an oil stick ... When I originally purchased my wife's new 2007 (14 miles) Lexus ES 350, after a short time I felt that it wasn't shifting quite well. I insisted that the new car dealer check the trans oil. In doing so, they found that the manufacturer had only filled approximately 75% of the required oil! On my old cars, I could check the trans level in seconds. In my wife's Lexus, it took about an hour of a mechanic's time.

* Like in my 2020 V90 Inscription, some seat controls are only accessible via the info. screen.

* When replacing a headlamp or direction signal bulb or brake pads, some brands require that the car's computer be updated with the change.

* When closing the car doors, on some cars, the window is automatically lowered slightly and then, once the door is fully closed, the window is moved up.

* Run-flat-tires: Some love them; I don't. As compared to non-run-flat-tires, the run-flats are more prone to sidewall blowout (I live in pot-hole prone NJ), have a harder ride (due to the need for greater sidewall strength), typically don't last as long, cost more to replace, can be in short supply, and enable the manufacturer to delete the spare tire. On this last point, if a run-flat tire car has a blowout, the only solution is to have the car towed to a tire place (depending on the car, this may have to be the nearest new-car dealer), and hope that a replacement tire is available. I feel sorry for any family who experiences a run-flat tire issue while far from home on vacation. For these cars, gone is the day when one could call AAA for roadside assistance, and then continue on one's journey.

* The use of small engines that then have turbos and/or superchargers placed on them to generate greater performance. The V6 engine in my old 1990 Buick Le Sabre, with a 4-speed trans with overdrive, could run all day, with 4 riders and a trunk full of luggage, on the highway at 65 mpg and get 33 to 34 mpg! My dad, year's ago, had a 1950 Studebaker Champion Coupe, which I think had a straight 6 engine and a manual trans. It had overdrive. My dad could coast along at 60mpg and I don't think the rpm exceeded 1000 ... couldn't even hear the engine ... although it did have a hard time stopping due to undersized brakes (LOL).

* The use of larger-and-larger wheels. While they look good, turning radius can be compromised, tire replacement costs increased and ride comfort diminished. Of well, at least they look good (LOL)!

* The widespread use of plastics in the engine bay and, for some cars, internally in engine (I believe BMW uses a plastic impeller in its water pump and a plastic timing chain guide, which are both prone to failure). I'm not an expert, but I have doubts that high-heat and plastics are a good combo, over time.

* Wiper blade systems that require the purchase of high-cost wiper blades. I was thinking of buying a 2020 Benz E-450 Estate Wagon. As I recall, the window washer fluid is pushed through holes in the wiper blade, instead of via a nozzle. The Benz blades cost $150.

* The use of a timing belt, instead of a timing chain. Manufacturers typically recommend timing belt replacement when the car is in excess of 100K miles or 10 years old. The cost, which normally is done with the replacement of the water pump, can be $1200+, depending on the brand.

* Stop/Start: I guess it's a good idea, particularly for the environment, if a car's engine is turned off when stopped. However, depending on the driving situation, this can be maddening (and who knows what long-term damage this might generate, particularly if one intends to keep their car for a long time, like me). My neighbor just purchased a 2019 Porsche Panamera with a V6 engine. It has stop/start and he told me he cannot turn it off! At least my V90 enables me to disable it, if I choose to do so. The 2020 Benz E450 Estate I considered, allowed the stop/start to engage only after the car was at a complete stop for 15 seconds or so ... as long as I purchased a high-cost option package. My V90 engine shuts off as soon as I stop (although I can disable it). When creeping along in heavy traffic, this can be a nuisance.

* Battery placement: On my V90, I believe the battery in somewhere in the rear of the car. My guess is that the electric charge from the rear battery to the front engine diminishes as it travels, and the wiring needed to transport the electricity adds to the car's weight. On my son's Honda Civic, to replace the battery, I had to remove the passenger side front tire and inner fender ... just to get to the battery!

* Fake rear bumper muffler tip openings, just for styling. Thank goodness my 2020 V90 has real/functional muffler tips, not plastic imitations.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm a particularly big fan of the safety and risk mitigation features in modern cars. In fact, this is the single biggest reason why I opted to purchase my new car, and my choice of the V90. As I get older, I've come to value the assistance these features provide. At least, with my V90, I still get to drive a car with non-run-flat-tires AND have a spare tire in the rear storage area! In addition, the Inscription Estate Wagon reminds me of a time, long-ago, when a station wagon was a station wagon. Life's simple pleasures!

 

I don't take you wrong because WE ARE singing the same tune. Can't check my own oil or trans fluid is a biggie to me. And no fluids do need to be changed, they do break down. Is it a scheme for designed failure?

Run flats - nope not for me! I'm not even a fan of low profile. In my area the pot holes are a legend and with low profile rims get dinged. Plus my wife's back problems don't like less air between the road and wheel.

I've always considered the worse time for wear in an engine is during start-up. So in my old head I'm thinking those cars that stop at every red light and then re-start will not last as long as a normal engine.

Side note - not care related ---
I'm all for doing what we can for the planet, the air, etc. but sometimes I think they push in one place just to bulge in another. The modern dishwashers now runs for 2 hours and unless you go high high end it doesn't have a heating element. It also uses the temp of hot water that your water heater is set. SO the dishwasher manufacturer can say - hey we are now more energy efficient but they don't say that your hot water heater may need to be set to a hotter temp. Which means that the dishwasher efficiency comes at the cost of the water heater needing to run longer.

I always found the wipers on the headlights make me ask why? Unless I'm out running through fields of mud, my headlights have always done well without wiper blades. Plus when one of those blades fail, you have metal going back and forth on a plastic lens. Hm?????

Seat controls on the screen? No thanks but many many car companies are going to the everything is controlled on the screen. So if the screen goes bad, every thing is shot and you have no choice but to buy a new very expensive screen.

The entire computer needing updated when changing a bulb would not be so bad if they all used the same computer programs and independent mechanics had access to those programs.

All of this creates cars, modules, computer boards, etc. that fail long before the older cars would and unlike the older cars there won't be a market for the used cars. People won't pay the price to get them fixed or they can't afford to get them fixed.

The last Jaguar I ever owned was a 1990 XJ6 with a big 6 cylinder engine. The thing was in great shape and on the highway the best MPG I ever got was 32 on a trip. Not bad for an old car and 98% of everything was analog. Around town where I live, with the traffic, the stop and go that Jaguar averaged 14.5 MPG sometimes a bit more. My 2016 V60 averages 15.5 MPG and a high majority of everything is computer controlled. I am just not sure if we have advanced all that much? In a way yes but in other ways, hidden ways, I say no we haven't made any major advancements. Maybe the best advancement I can think of is when they went to fuel injection.

 

I am having the same issue. Neither my local (VOLVO PALM SPRINGS) or Volvo corporate are willing/able to resolve it. I would like to join this suit.