I just can't take it anymore. I have been a member of this forum for a while and everytime the topic of a timing belt comes up, the ususal suspects proclaim that a broken belt means the end of an engine or the head is "destroyed" and requires purchasing a new or rebuilt head.

While a broken timing belt is bad and costs a lot more money than it would have cost to maintain the belt, it is by no means, a catastrophe or the end of the engine.

The only thing that happens when a timing belt breaks is a few valves get bent. This is not that big a deal! The valves for this car are relatively cheap at $10-15 a piece. In 1992 I bought a 1987 Porsche 928S which was a 32 valve V8 that had a broken belt. The intake valves were $48 each and the exhaust valves were $76 each and the headgasket set was $315 per bank. Now that was a catastrophe! Only one intake valve was unbent. I had to buy the other 31 valves.

All that is required is a valve spring compressor and a piece of 1/2in pvc pipe with a slot cut out to reach into and get the valve locks out. Put in the new valves, re-lap the valves with a drill or a grinding stick with suction cup and fine grinding material.

For those who might think that there are special procedures or something different because this car is a Volvo, think again, there is nothing different or difficult. Because of the automatic tensioner, it is actually one of the easiest engines to put a belt on. The Porsche 928S-S4 , GTS and 944/944Turbo are the most difficult which requires the use of a special belt tensioning tool(p9201). The Porsche 928's are so critical to have the timing belt at a particular tension that they are one of the only cars that have a timing belt tension light on the instrument cluster.

The Volvo engine is as simple as a Toyota or Nissan and is nothing to marvel at or be afraid of.

 

I do agree that it is possible to just change the valves and be done with it, but in most causes, it is easier and cheaper to just change out the head itself or even the whole engine.

 

Or, one could not fall behind on maintenance. Easiest solution. But I agree, broken timing belt does not always mean the end of the car.

 

As a professional mechanic, I will tell you this: You're right that a broken timing belt doesn't usually mean the "end of the engine." However... For someone who cannot do the work on their own, it's usually less expensive to buy a used engine instead of doing the repair. How so? well, first off, the head is an extreme pain in the *** to remove and reinstall on these cars- Volvo calls for over 12 hours of labor, and that's with their special tools that make it far easier. Keep in mind that just to remove the top cover, there's 40 bolts. Then, there's the cost of parts. No, it's not as much as your Porsche, but $15 per valve X 20 valves= $300. A head gasket set will run you $120, roughly. Timing belt is another $30, idler and tensioner pulleys $80. So, we're at $530 in parts alone. That's the shop's price, or individual's price, for parts. If you're paying a shop to do it, the markup on parts will probably take the cost of parts to $850 or more. So, let's get a junkyard head for $120, and charge the customer $200 for it (again, parts markups are part of how a shop covers its costs and makes its money. Then, there's the labor. 12 hours of labor to remove and reinstall the head- if the shop has Volvo's special tools- at a reasonable $85/ hour takes you to $1,020 in labor. Over $1,200 just to replace a head. Believe me, it's NOT as "simple as replacing a head on a Toyota" like you said." Now, let's go back to repairing the original head.The intake valves you can lap in with power tools. However, the exhaust valves, with their stellite plating, HAVE to be hand- lapped on these cars. And a normal spring compressor WON'T work on these engines, as the valve springs are completely enclosed, and a normal spring compressor won't fit. Volvo calls for 21.3 hours to do the whole job. 21.3 hours at $85/hour equals $1810.50. I'd probably discount the work, and do it for $1400 or so. add the $800 in parts, and you've got $2,300. A good salvage yard engine for a 1998 S70 GLT will run around $500. Volvo calls for 12 hours labor to replace the engine, so we're at $1,020 again, though once more, I'd discount the labor, probably to $750. Add in $140 for new timing components and $40 for fluids, Car is back on the road for about $1,400. And yes, it seriously takes just as much time to remove and replace the engine as it does to remove and replace the head... That's how much of a pain it is to change the head on these engines. You have to remove more bolts just to take off the cam cover than to change the engine. All of the above, when replacing the head instead of the engine, assume that the pistons didn't get holed or that the cylinder walls are okay.

So... my point is this: if the timing belt breaks, for the average person that doesn't work on their own car, it DOES mean "the end of the engine." And no matter what, they're going to be paying at least 1/4 the value of the car, if not more, to have it fixed.

In the end... CHANGE YOUR TIMING BELTS!!!

 

I am looking at buying a 1994 850 turbo with 116,000 miles on it. The owner has had the car for about a year and said he didn't drive it much. He didn't change the timing belt. I'm doing a little research here and have a few questions.

Do I need to buy the hardware kit or just the belt. The kit is around $300, the belt looks like its about $50.

I have no idea if the belt has ever been changed but $350 is a little steep. The car needs a few other things also.

thanks

 

Well, I think part of the problem lies with people seeing the cost of a timing belt replacement and thinking they can go without it.

Basically, if you tell someone who doesn't know a lot about cars essentially "Hey, there's this belt inside your engine that's going to cost $600 to replace", they are going to decline it - regardless of the consequences. I've seen a lot of people assume that techs are just trying to scam money out of them, and then complain more when the belt does break and they need a valve job or new engine.

 

They're due for a new Timing Belt about every 70K miles or so; if you're at 116K and its never been changed you're living on borrowed time!

I (and others) recommend changing all the pulleys/tensioners every other belt change. Since it's closer to 140K than 70K, I would recommend you do the whole nine yards this time around.

Look around for a sticker indicating if/when the timing belt was ever changed; likely under the hood somewhere or possibly on the driver's door jam.

BTW: These cars are expensive to maintain unless you can DIY; even then $350 is a relatively small investment into this car...

 

I think I can do the work myself unless there are special tools needed. thanks for the input

 

It can be done pretty easily in your garage, I'm not sure how the timing belt exactly works, but I know for the serpentine belt you need something to "loosen" up the tensioner to get the belt off, I assume you have to do that with the timing belt. Oh, and quite a bit of patience.

 

No special tools really necessary, though the cam holder tool specifically made for 850s and S/V 70s from IPD is really nice to have, and only costs $20 or so. Volvo calls for a special tool to compress the tensioner, but you can do it with a vise- get plastic inserts for the jaws, line up the holes before you compress it, and compress it very slowly. Use something very stiff to hold the plunger in place- there's a lot of pressure. And do NOT remove the cam gears- they're not indexed, so you're likely to screw something up. I mean, if you HAVE to remove them, like, to change the seals or something, carefully mark the gear and the cam and avoid turning anything- but otherwise, don't do it!

 

Hopefully, most anyone can see my post was not directed toward "suits" or those that don't know which way to turn a bolt. Your average weekend mechanic CAN do this job unless they are talked out of it and falsely convinced that they can't possibly even try such a seemingly difficult task as to remove a head and replace the valves on a "Volvo"!!

Wow, an entire 12 hours to r&r an head on this car? Sounds about average for a single head plus an hour or so. Granted, the overall elapsed time may be greater than something like a Supra but, with a manual, it's not difficult. Oh, 40 bolts on the cam carriage/valve cover/upper head(whatever Volvo refers to it as), is quite easy. I pulled it in about 35 minutes just to clean it. The bolts themselves took about 2 minutes with a butterfly.

Like I said in my original post, a standard valve spring compressor and a custom made 1/2 or 3/4in piece of pvc with a slot cutout will work to access the recessed valves in this head.

I have r&r'd hundreds of heads and engines in over 20 years ranging from Porsche 944/951, 911/930's, Jaguar XJS, Alfa's, Toyota's, Nissan's, Mitsu's, Triumph's, Mercede's, Lotus Esprit's, etc. etc etc. This engine in not anything special or different. Most anyone with a book, a decent set of tools and determination could do it.

Out of all the cars I have done complete engine rebuilds or valve jobs on, the most difficult were Porsche 911 then 928s, Saab 900, 944 and 951 Porsche, Merc 201 190E Cosworth 16v and the occasional Infiniti Q45. Those were pains in the ***! This little belt driven, twin cam inline 5 Volvo is a cakewalk in comparison and almost as easy as the hundreds of japan imports I have worked on.

 

Carrots made some good points; see post #10 in this thread.

Also here's a link to a pretty good write-up on how to do an 850 T-belt.
http://volvospeed.com/Repair/timingbelt.php

Good luck and ask questions if you get stuck.

 

Okay so now I have just a bit more perspective.

schigara... first I'm not knocking you because I respect you but yeah it seems easy to you because you have all of the right tools and a "heck" of a lot of experience...btw I'd love to hear what you have to say about my dream car the lotus esprit turbo, did I say that I ment a volvo.

Carrots.. yeah I feeeel your pain. In the beginning when I was ingnorant not so much but now yes.

Some insight.. I messed up taking the top of the head off and broke the casting at that narrow little thrust surface on the pulley end of the cams got hung up on that end and were not on the other and an bit of toque and I heard a crack( I should write a little focous of attention on this).

Oh poop. I shipped it off to Clearwater Cylinder Head expecting a call to the effect "your head (engine head that is )is bad, you need a new one" But No... Patrick ( a really nice guy.....) calls, says oh yeah your head had a broken top casting that we replaced, needed 8 new valves and then said your head is ready to ship.

Anyway I posted on my engine rebuild thread that one should practice on another engine prior to this one. I just hope I come out of this on the winning end.

 

I had a customer who drove a V70 Turbo wagon from NYC to Ohio on a misfire and it turned out that he burned 2 exhaust valves. I worked on Volvo before, but never tore a head off. I spent almost 30 hours rebuilding the head with new valves. I can rebuild a Geo Metro head from start to finish in 5 hours.

I would say that if you are an average backyard mechanic, you can do the job, but it will be very time consuming and lots of patience is needed.

 

$1,400 is outrageous! My timing belt snapped the other day and it's being replaced for $275, no other damage was done. My car is a 1991 volvo 240. Maybe I was just lucky.

 

The 240 is a completely different animal, it has a non-interference engine so no damage is done to the valves if the belt breaks. With a 240 the worst thing that happens is that it won't run again until the belt is replaced.

...Lee

 

Wow... lots of responses! Here's the thing, Schigara, I agree that this is not THAT difficult of an engine to repair. But again, to the average person who can't do their own work on their car, a timing belt breaking might as well mean the end of the engine, as it isn't a trivial amount of work to repair the damaged valves. If it were my own car? yeah, I'd pull the head and fix it.

And $1,400 up there wasn't the cost to replace a timing belt- it was replacement of the engine with a salvage yard unit, plus installing a new timing belt on that engine to prevent future trouble. The timing belt alone is a lot less to replace.