Hi,

I recently purchased a 2005 Volvo XC90 with 96K miles and a comprehensive 2-year aftermarket warranty (sold through Chrysler). The owners of the dealership we bought the car from also own a second dealership that is a licensed Volvo shop and we didn't have any issues with our purchasing decision.

Within three weeks the engine failed. Because of some problems I had with the dealership post-purchase (all new brakes were a stipulation of the purchase agreement but the dealership/salesman fought me on it) I decided to take the car to a different garage that specializes in imports. Their diagnosis was "worn rear bearing on drive shaft / block worn / will need new engine".

I ended up having to take it back to the dealership I bought it from since they said there was no way the warranty would cover such extensive repairs if it weren't inspected locally.

Over two weeks has passed since the original dealership took possession of the problem. After telling me countless times they were looking at it but had no information, they had the car towed to their sister dealership (a Volvo franchise) stating they felt the Volvo shop would be more qualified to make a diagnostic.

So finally we got their findings - they won't send me the actual technician notes (yet) but have told me "the driveshaft is stripped / there are shreds of metal everywhere / the head is wrecked". They also let me know that so far they have cataloged "over 110 parts that need to be replaced" and sent me a preliminary list for review. It reads like a complete rebuild of the engine.

I asked the head of service why they were trying to do such an extensive and complicated rebuild and was told it was purely a financial decision as the aftermarket warranty would not cover a replacement engine for the vehicle. She agreed that the "best" course of action would be to replace of course and that I have the option of paying out the $15K for a new engine.

I was wondering if I could get more educated opinions from this forum. I've been told by a number of people that a rebuild like this isn't recommended due to the fact that it will cause uneven wear on components that haven't been replaced and will statistically have more problems quicker.

A couple questions I have:

1. Going by the information I have, does it sound like the issue should have been caught in the dealer's mechanical inspection of the vehicle or not?

2. Can anyone give me a more detailed input on the "uneven wear" issue?

3. Is it worth having the "rebuild" done vs a replacement if I have less than two years of warranty on the vehicle? Obviously if statistically I'm going to have more problems sooner and the total cost could be $15K (or more at that time) two years from today that isn't going to fly.

4. Any and all advice.

My wife and I just brought home our first daughter a couple days ago and bought the Volvo after extensive research into vehicle safety and reliability. I worry that no matter how this situation progresses it is going to get expensive for me quickly and would really appreciate any technical input people have on the matter.

thanks in advance!

 

Is this a 2005 V8?

 

Yes - it is a V8.

 

There are only a couple of XC-90s to be avoided: the T6 due to premature transmission failure because the 4sp GM tranny's max torque rating was right at the max torque output of the T6 engine, and (unfortunately) the 2005 V8 because the CB shaft bearings were enclosed without drain holes so if they get wet and rust (from pressure washing the engine for example) the bearing will fail and cause catastrophic engine damage like that which you seem to have suffered.

My (limited) understanding is that you can't really catch this issue on inspection aside from taking the engine apart unless the failure is underway. That said, any competent XC90 mechanic would have noted that the 2005 could have this issue and that the purchaser should check to see if an engine replacement had been done previously or the drain holes had been drilled in the bearing casing. Did you get an independent PPI or did you rely on the dealer from whom you bought the car?

Outside of those two issues the XC90 has proven to be pretty reliable, though there are some complaints about excessive wear on the suspension components leading to earlier than usual replacement times, particularly on the earlier model years and some sporadic complaints of tranny failure in the V8s because the AW 6sp tranny is also max torque rated at the engine's max torque output, so if driven hard without regular transmission fluid flushes & changes, it's just a matter of time really. These are all well known issues and as a result T6s and 2005 V8s trade cheaper than other versions on a relative basis.

For more info on the CB-shaft problem read this thread on this forum and this thread on Swedespeed. Were I you, I'd spend the next day or two reading EVERYTHING on the internet about this problem. Startpage should be your best friend this weekend.

Unfortunately you've landed in a bit of a tough spot here. VCNA has been known to cover half the engine replacement, but I'd bet they only do that when the car was purchased through the Volvo dealership network.

As for your dealer, the Volvo guys should know exactly what this problem is, and that it calls for complete engine replacement (not a rebuild), but as indicated they are probably just trying to work with the warranty company. So you need to read all the fine print on the warranty and prepare to fight them all the way to court if the fine print doesn't EXPLICITLY give them the ability to stiff you with a rebuild. Given the potential costs involved here, you may wish to lawyer-up.

 

yup, call your attorney. The rebuild is a half assed answer to an easy question. I don't doubt for a second that if this was a Volvo CPO vehicle, your new engine would have already been installed. I wish you luck and congrats on the new crumb cruncher.

 

Call me a cynic but given that the engine failed in three weeks I would bet the dealer knew about this issue when they sold it to you. The failing bearing makes noise for some time before it fails completely and takes out the engine. Did the engine sound funny to you?

 

There's a decent chance that this is why the car was NOT sold at the sister Volvo dealership, but instead stayed on the the non-Volvo lot to be foisted off on an unknowing warranty company.

 

Quite. Push the expensive repair cost off onto the warranty company and/or the unsuspecting new owner.

 

Thanks everyone for the input - and sorry for the slow response.

I have been fighting with the dealership to obtain a repair manifest (they claimed to have a list of over 110 parts that needed to be replaced) and the technician's notes with diagnosis. After escalating it to the general manager (who may be an owner as the dealership is in his family's name) he let me know that all requested information was available for my review if I wanted to come in and speak with his technicians and "executive management staff".

I agreed to meet only with him, although somewhat reluctantly. I was tired of asking for the information and having him refuse it. I didn't see a point in meeting with him simply to get the details for the first time.

When my wife and I sat down with him I immediately asked if it was the balance shaft and he said "yes" and commented on how I had been doing my research. I asked him why his subordinates didn't/wouldn't release that information to me over the phone or email and he said that he felt it merited an in-person conversation instead.

Their proposed repairs consist of a manifest of 110 parts (he assures me most are gaskets, screws and bolts) and he swears it it the best and only necessary repairs. I pointed out to him the previous statements made by his staff to me.

1. When I brought the diagnosis to his company from another garage (trying to get my warranty information - not trying to have them handle the issue, the car was so new to us that the warranty details had not even arrived in the mail yet!) one of his managers made the statement "I don't see why they would recommend a $15K repair on a car that was sold for less than that." Of course, the other mechanics had no idea what I paid for the car and were simply offering their best opinions on how to proceed.

2. After his company took control of the car (yes, I'm regretting this - they did manage to convince me that they would have a better time dealing with the warranty company due to their strong rapport and would be my best option for getting an expensive repair approved) their Volvo service manager called to tell me about some of the damage to the car (without the requested level of detail, of course). When I asked why they were trying to do the rebuild and not a replacement her statement was that it was the opinion of the dealership, from experience, that the after-market warranty would be resistant to the idea of a replacement engine based on the cost and that they were submitting the repairs that they felt were most likely to be approved.

Keeping those points in mind I have trouble accepting the statements he made that replacing only the balance shaft and related parts is a sufficient repair and would want to verify the technical information with an impartial third party who does not have any financial vestment in the issue.

He repeatedly tried to convince me that his dealership didn't have any "vested financial interest" and he would be happy to do a $15-$20K repair since that meant he got paid more. Of course that wasn't what I was implying - they were made aware of a shifting issue with car pre-purchase and communicated to me that their mechanics stated it was only my unfamiliarity with driving a car with "such a powerful engine in a small frame" and that I would "get used to it".

My gut feeling is that he wants to keep the repairs as inexpensive as possible because he knows that the warranty may not cover them - and doesn't want to eat the costs.

When I brought up the shifting problem (slippage on highway speeds when starting to accelerate past 50MPH) he smiled and said "yes, that is definitely a sign of wear on the balance shaft". I asked why it wasn't caught during their inspection with the indications I gave him - and he told me that was only because his mechanics that reviewed the car were not qualified to make the diagnosis. He also pointed out that if I were to buy a used Lexus off his lot that had a Lexus-specific issue that of course none of his team would be able to instantly diagnose the issue and that I should accept that they did their best.

He refused to answer a couple questions that I asked, including if the after-market warranty company had been made aware of the pre-existing nature of the issue and if he felt it even should be covered because of that.

I did tell him I didn't think his admitted lack of qualification of his employees was an excuse - as he was agreeing that "any Volvo technician" would have immediately known what the issue was, especially because he employs so many Volvo technicians.

He also let me know that if I was not happy with the car one week after it was returned to me repaired that he would have the dealership buy it back from me. I've since asked for clarification on what his proposed buy-back price would be - if it reflected my purchase price or if it reflected the thousands of dollars of parts and labor that he would be doing under my warranty.

So to start to summarize - he wants me to authorize replacement of the counter-balance shaft, drilling the bearing enclosure and a few other things. He insists that their mechanical inspection yielded no further damage and that there is no reason for a replacement or additional repairs. Could I get some opinions from people on this forum about that? Are there other areas I need to worry about?

At the conclusion of our meeting he said that the garage and warranty company required my signature to authorize the repairs. I told him that I wasn't there to sign any papers and would not be committing to anything at this point, but thanked him for finally providing me with (at least some!) of the information I had requested.

He immediately tried to appeal to my wife and I emotionally - stating that our car had been on his lift for over 10 days now without a decision from me and I was "preventing the technician from making a living". When I pointed out I had been asking for details daily and had been consistently refused - and if that were even a real issue the burden was on him and his employees for their shady handling of the situation. There was no way, after his company having possession of my car for 28 days and forcing me to get outside opinions that I was going to simply sign a paper and trust that what he was telling me as the truth - or that it was in my best interest.

He then tried appealing to me financially - letting me know that if I rejected their repair decisions that he would have to figure out how to fine me for their work to that point. Again - pretty empty, I'm aware of my legal and financial standings in their diagnosis and none of it comes back to me in any way.

I did tell him I would try to get him a decision as soon as possible but that professional consultations generally don't occur over the weekend and I would try to have my end handled early in the week. He asked me to commit to Monday which I refused - I have a Tuesday morning meeting with a consumer protection lawyer specializing in car matters - but I didn't share that detail with him.

Anyway... sorry for the long post. I'd appreciate any and all input on the matter that people can get me. I'm also meeting with the owner of another dealership that specializes in imports to get the opinion of him and his staff, and have another Volvo technician who is willing to review the matter as well.

The GM also let me know that unfortunately his staff consists of all "Car people" and that sometimes answering emails is a difficult task for them, as they worry about statements being taken literally and the dealership having to take responsibility for them! He said they would prefer to speak on everything with me verbally from now on if that were a possibility. I kept all sarcastic comments about the same legal level of accountability for verbal vs. written statements to myself - and immediately at the conclusion of our meeting emailed him (asking him to reply by email for that very reason) for factual clarifications on a few things.

Anyway... back to spending time with my two-week old daughter away from the computer.

Thanks in advance for everything!

 

Oh - one last note. I asked him if he would be willing to give me a written guarantee - that exceeded the existing warranty - on the engine if I were to approve his proposed repairs. He refused saying that Volvo would give me two years guarantee on the repair itself and that he wasn't willing to extend that to the entire engine even though he is "confident everything else is in perfect running order".

I know that isn't a standard request or practice, but I like hearing how people answer questions.

 

Wow. You need that lawyer, right away. In fact, you should have taken him/her to that meeting.

The bit about the shifting issue being a balance shaft symptom is a lie. It's a transmission symptom, and he knows that. Some of the V8s have developed tranny issues. It doesn't seem to be a design problem with the transmission because the 3.2s have the same AW 6speed and haven't had problems. But the max torque rating for the 6speed is very close to the max torque of the V8 engine, so if the previous owner was driving it hard, you might have tranny problems as well.

I know that's not good news, but it does tell you that you need to step up the intensity of your fighting, legally.

And congrats on the new addition!

 

I would get an attorney just based on the fact it need all this work done and you just bought it? they should at the very least give you full credit towards another vEhicle..and 15k for a new eng? they see you coming...that is more then likly more than you paid for the car...i have a 05 T6 and pull a trl and a boat and never have transmission issues , not that they dont exeist ...

 

So an update!

On Thursday they let me know that the engine was back together and running properly with the new balance shaft and related parts. The downside is that they "notice a concern" with the transmission and will pull codes and check fluid condition.

They let me know on Friday that they have determined the issue to be the "valve body" and are waiting to hear back from the warranty company.

Ruined balance shaft, bad transmission - wonder what will be next! I wonder at what point they would agree that a replacement core was indeed the correct route to go.

Next time we're on the market for another car (in a few months) I'll certainly be asking a lot of pre-sales questions in this forum.

 

Good luck. Do your research now both here and on Swedespeed regarding the V8 tranny issues. I've read that valve body replacements don't work, but don't know enough about it to have an opinion.

 

So as a followup to this saga.

Dealership ended up returning my car after 50 days (only owning it 72!) with an assortment of additional problems reported with it - including an undiagnosed issue with the rear brake (according to their report that is), a cracked engine mount, a front ball joint with "play" and an "engine hiccup".

They assured me that the "hiccup" was not related to the new balance shaft or replacement/rebuilt valve body - but other than that, they couldn't tell me what it might be. When I pressed them for clarification on what the hiccup's symptoms were (hiccup doesn't sound very technical to me, even for a non-car person!) I was told that it "may be a slight engine miss" and that was all.

They had the car for 50 days... approximately $7500 billed to my warranty company for the balance shaft and valve body repairs during that time.

So of course I follow up in email... here is the response from the dealership's Volvo service manager (sent 8/30/12):

"""
I'm writing to address the other concerns you had with your vehicle.

As far as the ball joint is concerned. There is play present in it, but it is only slight. It falls within Volvo specs as acceptable.

The "hiccup" that you mentioned would be a slight miss in the engine, not related to the transmission. My technician felt that the shifting of the transmission was with in Volvo spec. However, we would be happy to go for a ride with you.

The engine mount, has a small crack in it. We typically replace them once the crack is all the way through. You will know when the crack is all the way through because the engine sits on the sub-frame and causes noise and some vibration.

The right rear brake holding up was due to the vehicle being parked for a long period of time. This is not unusual. Based on the driving that our technician did on the vehicle, they operated properly with no cause for concern.
"""

I asked to have their list of concerns addressed at no charge to myself as I didn't feel it was fair that they were further profiting off of me - after all, they sold me a car they represented to have passed an thorough inspection which clearly never took place.

The general manager also states that because the car is used that all these problems are my responsibility and burden (apparently he didn't/can't read the purchase agreement!).

So my wife and I took the car to a different dealership today (9/4/12) to have an independent inspection / verification of their findings. Preliminary inspection notes follow:

"""
THE E BRAKE CABLES ARE STUCK ON WHICH CAUSED THE SHOES TO WEAR THIN AND RIP THE HOLD DOWN SPRING RETAINING TAB OFF THE BACKING PLATE (SPOT WELD) SHOES ARE ALSO SEPARATING AS WELL. THE LEFT SIDE BACKING PLATE IS BENT AND RUSTED SLIGHTLY I WOULD SUGGEST NEW AS WELL.

THERE ARE SOME ENGINE BELLY PAN SCREWS MISSING. LEFT FRONT LOWER BALL JOINT HAS A LOT OF PLAY. BOTH FRONT LOWER CONTROL ARMS REAR BUSHINGS ARE SPLIT. FRONT OF ENGINE LOWER ENGINE MOUNT HAS VERY SLIGHT SPLIT STARTED BUT I THINK THE SAGGING IS WORSE THAN THE SPLIT.
"""

My favorite part is that the dealership we bought it from replaced both front and rear brakes! So first their diagnosis is there is some problem with the rear brakes but they won't look at it unless I pay more, even though _they_ did the work. Then an independent party points out the additional brake problems. Sigh...

Anyone have contact information of a Volvo rep that would be interested in hearing about how these licensed Volvo mechanics/dealers are behaving?

How about a recommendation of a lawyer in West Michigan that is good at handling these things?